Yeah, something has to give and we as a society have to find out what.

I don’t get why people shy away from making these hard calls. I mean, I don’t even think this one is a hard one to make.

Of course all of this does not exist in an ideology free completely politically neutral space. You have to make some assumptions and some value judgements. That’s ok. There is nothing wrong with that.

I’m also so weirded out when people try to construct working societies from this maximalist non-interference maximalist neutrality point of view. I don’t think societies have to be neutral.

You are also constructing one very weird case that just doesn’t work at all and makes no sense.

There's a significant difference between an ideology and an identity.

Eliminating the former is not genocide, eliminating the latter is.

Why—whenever the question of hate comes up—is HN so quick to rise to the defense of the hateful?

> There's a significant difference between an ideology and an identity.

I suspect that many Muslims consider that to be their identity, not just their ideology.

> Why—whenever the question of hate comes up—is HN so quick to rise to the defense of the hateful?

Because I'm hateful (to at least somebody). And so are you. We don't defend the hateful because the hateful are so wonderful. We don't defend them because we agree with them. We defend them because we're defending us some time down the road.

"I'm a shitty person, and so are you." is a cop-out and frankly insulting.

> I suspect that many Muslims consider that to be their identity, not just their ideology.

I can't believe I have to explain that the difference is between what's a choice and what's not: You can't change your identity. Ideology is arbitrary.

That isn't what I said. I said that there is someone who thinks you're a terrible person. It doesn't matter whether you are or not. They think you are, because you're too gay, or too straight, or to conservative, or too liberal, or your skin is too dark, or your skin is too light, or you're too old, or you're too young, or you're too religious, or you're not religious enough, or you have the wrong religion, or whatever. There are people who think that you are a terrible person.

So be careful of justifying intolerance of the terrible. That rationale can be used against you, perhaps by people a whole lot less well-meaning than you are.

There's also a line between terrible and hateful.

Hateful is willfully terrible.

If there's anyone out there that thinks I'm hateful, then they're factually incorrect.

> I can't believe I have to explain that the difference is between what's a choice and what's not

You don't, you just need to understand that the idea that identity is always centered on immutable characteristics is wrong.

Are you saying that people can never change the gender/sex/etc they identify with? Some people would find that hateful!