> I am not from USA but why every comment here is implying ICE to be some evil thing.

Because there are reports of ICE doing inhumane things toward the people they have detained.

1) Children are being separated from families.

2) Children are dying under ICE facilities.

3) The jailing of asylum seekers.

These are the few things that lead many people to believe ICE is evil.

Where as the other side seems to be concentrating on the illegal immigrants.

It also come down to the morality of what they're doing and if this is similar to internment camp or concentration camp.

but none of these features are new, child seperation and children dying in ICE facilities happened under the Obama administration and it wasn't a big deal then. What changed?

>but none of these features are new, child seperation and children dying in ICE facilities happened under the Obama administration and it wasn't a big deal then. What changed?

Not really. Here are some things that changed.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/21/us/politics/fact-check-tr...

Source? Every news article I've seen shows that the problem is far worse under Trump.

I'm not sure about how much worse things were. But I saw a source from NBC that says it was not practiced under the Obama administration although they very briefly considered it.[1]

This was a quote I thought relevant, however because I don't think it was rainbows and unicorns under Obama either:

"The Obama administration did detain families together — some indefinitely — in hopes of deterring future migrants back in 2014, earning protests and public outrage at the time." [1]

[1]https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigration-border-crisis/...

It actually was higher under Obama - https://www.axios.com/immigration-ice-deportation-trump-obam...

>By the numbers: Under the Obama administration, total ICE deportations were above 385,000 each year in fiscal years 2009-2011, and hit a high of 409,849 in fiscal 2012. The numbers dropped to below 250,000 in fiscal years 2015 and 2016.

>Under Trump, ICE deportations fell to 226,119 in fiscal 2017, then ticked up to over 250,000 in fiscal 2018 and hit a Trump administration high of 282,242 this fiscal year (as of June).

Edit: I'm not saying I support Trump or ICE, my point is that Obama was hardly a leftist.

The parent comment claimed "child seperation and children dying in ICE facilities" was happening under Obama, implying to the same degree.

This certainly was not true and you have not provided sources saying so.

> It actually was higher under Obama

The rate of deportations wasn't the issue, the incidence and conditions of detention of children was the issue; the incidence of that was not as high, nor the conditions as bad, under Obama. But, even so:

> and hit a Trump administration high of 282,242 this fiscal year (as of June).

The federal fiscal years ends at the end of September, so “as of June” is 8-9 months of the year, depending on whether it's June 1, June 30, or somewhere in between, so it's on pace for 376k-423k, assuming a flat line throughout the year though continuing increase throughout the year might be more consistent with the year over year change. So, Trump started low in fiscal 2017 (which started under Obama and occurred largely while Trump was still getting people in place, with immigration policy focussed on fighting over the Muslim ban), and has rapidly reversed the deportation declines of the last 4 years of the Obama administration in the two years since, coming back up to a pace around or exceeding Obama’s peak year. So even if deportation numbers were the issue, your presentation would be misleading.

What does that have to do with the rate of kids dying in cages?

what is the rate of kids dying in cages?

Sorry, I don't support Trump or ICE. But it's dishonest to act like Obama was a leftist, this has been an ongoing problem for a while.

Total non-sequitur. Nobody is making any assertions about how "left" Obama is.

And so is your question? I was responding to someone else asking for a source on deportations being higher than Obama. Nowhere did I say I support holding undocumented immigrants in concentration camps.

> I was responding to someone else asking for a source on deportations being higher than Obama

Read again. Nobody asked that.

No, that isn't the question I asked. The question I asked was for a source to the claim that "child seperation and children dying in ICE facilities happened under the Obama administration and it wasn't a big deal then" -- which isn't remotely true. This problem is vastly worse under Trump. Obama was not doing this.

> But it's dishonest to act like Obama was a leftist

But the Right is the only place that that happens.

> this has been an ongoing problem for a while.

No, the family separation policy has not been going on for a while; the Obama policy was not to detain illegal crossers with children (absent some other reason for detention), specifically to avoid that, and not to force legal asylum-seekers away from standard border crossings to force them to be illegal crossers in the first place.

That's not too say that there weren't humanitarian problems at the border under Obama, but they weren't at the same level as those deliberately created by Trump policies.

Because they do stuff like this

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/border-patrol-agent-deta...

Note that the article you linked is about CBP, which is not part of ICE.

Also note that ICE doesn't just enforce immigration laws, they also do things like this: https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/missouri-felon-indicted-se...

Officers executed a search warrant at Lee’s residence and found numerous firearms, ammunition, firearm suppressors, suspected methamphetamine, marijuana, suspected stolen farm equipment, and a large amount of cash. Lee told officers that he received 10 to15 past deliveries of the selector switches, and that he converted and successfully fired a Glock pistol as a fully automatic firearm.

> The superseding indictment resulted from an investigation by the following agencies: U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement’s (ICE) Homeland Security Investigations (HSI); Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives; U.S. Postal Inspection Service; and Newton (Missouri) Sheriff’s Department.

I'd rather take the chance that those several other law enforcement agencies couldn't have worked it out on their own than have thousands of innocent families torn apart and kept in cages.

Is this an either/or choice? Does HSI have to not exist in order to prevent reprehensible treatment of migrant families?

Conversely, would eliminating HSI prevent such reprehensible treatment of migrant families? Wouldn't the abuses just pop up elsewhere, given the agenda of the current administration?

> Does HSI have to not exist in order to prevent reprehensible treatment of migrant families?

It sure seems that way. And people often forget that we didn't have these agencies at all before 9/11, and we did just fine. Metal detectors and stronger cockpit doors are well and good, but what we have are agencies that were created in a time of extreme fear, and have held on to fear as their guiding ethos.

> Wouldn't the abuses just pop up elsewhere, given the agenda of the current administration?

Maybe, I don't know. But the problem right now is they have an excuse. We're giving people license to commit whatever thuggish, nationalistic fantasies they want, all sanctioned under some vague "rule of law" argument where the letter has far, far outstripped the spirit. And what we end up with are goon squads harassing and imprisoning innocents based on technicalities. I don't think that sort of thing could persist at this scale without the pretense that these agencies provide.

I'll put it this way: I live in southern Texas. I'm who they're allegedly protecting. And if ICE were abolished overnight, I would throw a party.

> And people often forget that we didn't have these agencies at all before 9/11, and we did just fine.

ICE wasn't created out of thin air, it was formed by merging and reorganizing existing organizations including Customs and INS.

> We're giving people license to commit whatever thuggish, nationalistic fantasies they want, all sanctioned under some vague "rule of law" argument where the letter has far, far outstripped the spirit.

I agree this is happening and we need to do something to stop it. At the same time, I don't believe this is the only thing that's happening in ICE, as it's a large and complex organization.

> if ICE were abolished overnight, I would throw a party.

If that happened but the fundamental issue of nationalism and lack of concern for human rights was not addressed, I think we could end up in an even worse place than we are currently.

I'm not against abolishing ICE, but I don't think it's a solution in itself. The fundamental issue, in my opinion, is a lack of empathy and understanding for people who seem different, and it's happening on a large scale. I believe that is a much harder issue to tackle compared to restructuring our federal bureaucracy, but that's what we should be focusing on to make a real, lasting impact. Restructuring without addressing the underlying issue seems like a placebo that would do more harm than good.

> And people often forget that we didn't have these agencies at all before 9/11, and we did just fine.

Sure, the post-9/11 reorganization precedes the current abuses, but I don't see a clear argument that it is somehow fundamental to them. Border Patrol and ICE seem to be the main agencies implementing the problem policies; Border Patrol predates the reports, INS’s enforcement arm would have been in ICE’s role before, but I don't see why that would have made the situation better in an Administration with the same general policy organization.

>Because they do stuff like this

So one border guard does something, and it's okay to say "they do things like this"?

Isn't that exactly the argument Trump makes about illegal immigrants comitting crimes?

So can no one explain the logic here? CBP are bad, because some jerk did something bad in Montana. But you lose your minds when the crazy right says the same thing about Muslims or illegal immigrants? Are generalizations and stereotypes acceptable for policy or not? I can't keep up.

Fresh off the Resolute desk: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/editorials/trump-...

They could also let asylum seekers go, and allow them to live in the United States pending a hearing. That's what we've been doing until this administration. These aren't random people off the street, these are people with valid claims of asylum who have passed the credible fear interview administered by CBP. Almost all of them will stay in contact with the courts and go to all their appointments.

The editorial also neglects to mention that our facilities are greatly over capacity, that this change will make that much much worse, and that thanks to the backlog of immigration cases these families would have to be in these facilities for 5 years or more. To say nothing of the abuses and poor conditions.

And, once again, these families seeking asylum have not committed any crime, they have done nothing illegal.

75% or more of asylum claims from central americans are ultimately denied.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/03/world/us-asylum-denial-rates-...

Doesn't matter though, they are still not breaking the law.

There are a lot of factors involved in those numbers. For starters, immigration court does not provide public defenders. If you can't afford a lawyer, and can't find a lawyer willing to work pro bono, you have to represent yourself. Yes, even if you are a minor. And having an attorney, according to your article, makes it 5x more likely for your claim to be accepted.

There's also the fact that standards for being granted asylum can be arbitrary and not subject to proper review. Immigration judges work for the DOJ, not the judicial system, and are appointed by the Attorney General. The Attorney General also has fairly broad powers to increase the burden of proof for asylum cases, and limiting the circumstances in which an asylum claim is valid. The AG can also directly override the decisions of judges and deny asylum. For example: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/ag-barr-using-u...

>they are still not breaking the law.

Yes they are, illegally entering the United States is breaking the law.

Not according to Title 8 Section 1158, in the first sentence: "Any alien who is physically present in the United States or who arrives in the United States (whether or not at a designated port of arrival and including an alien who is brought to the United States after having been interdicted in international or United States waters), irrespective of such alien’s status, may apply for asylum in accordance with this section or, where applicable, section 1225(b) of this title."

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1158

That allows the alien to apply for asylum, but does not say anything about whether their act of entering the US was or not breaking the law.

We could entertain either or both of:

A. Entering the US is not breaking any laws, no matter the manner in which it is accomplished.

B. Applying for asylum grants an amnesty for the laws broken while entering the US.

It's (B), in that when applying for asylum things like illegal entry, including using fake documents or false testimony to gain entry, will not be held against you if your reason for doing so was to escape your persecution. See cases like Akinmade v. INS, Turcios v. INS, and Mamouzian v. Ashcroft

Assuming B, the intersection of set I = {people that entered the country illegally} and D = {people who made an asylum claim that was denied} consists of people that broke the law by entering the US illegally. Using fake documents / false testimony to make an invalid asylum request is extra damning. For the central american migrants at the border, this may well be more than 75% of them.

You're assuming people know in advance whether or not they have a valid asylum claim, and that the court case will determine perfectly whether or not a claim was valid. Regardless, the result of either illegal entry and having an asylum claim rejected is deportation, so the distinction is academic.

> They could also let asylum seekers go, and allow them to live in the United States pending a hearing. That's what we've been doing until this administration.

Granted, there have been a large increase in the number of people who skip their asylum hearings. From 2013 to 2017 this figure was lower, averaging ~44%. More recent samples put this figure in the 70% range and by some estimates even into the 90% range.

We could have ICE deport people who miss their hearings but ICE raids generate even more negative PR than detaining people at the border.

On top of that detention is the maximally cruel way to do things. IIRC something like 80-90% of people returned for their court dates under the old system where they were not detained anyways and even if you did think that number is too high there are other options like ankle monitors to ensure they could be tracked down.

> IIRC something like 80-90% of people returned for their court dates under the old system where they were not detained anyways and even if you did think that number is too high there are other options like ankle monitors to ensure they could be tracked down.

That is not correct. Even sites seeking to argue against the high rates of skipping asylum hearings put their no-show figures at 40-50%: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/06/26/how-many-...

>> they have done nothing illegal

Crossing into the US illegally is by definition illegal. Misdemeanor, to be exact.

I'll point you to Title 8 Section 1158, 1(a), as mentioned in other places in this thread. Asylum seekers may be excused for illegal entry into the US. An asylum seeker can even use a fake passport to get through customs to apply for asylum: see Akinmade v. INS as an example.

>They could also let asylum seekers go, and allow them to live in the United States pending a hearing

There are many issues, yes. Why can't you give the administration credit for fixing one of them? Why point to another problem and say, "but this isn't fixed yet!"

ICE's recent policy of separating children from their families and then holding them in inadequate conditions with insufficient medical care is starting to produce tiny coffins: https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-migrant-child-border-de...

This article is about CBP, which is not part of ICE, and ICE is not mentioned anywhere in it.

I'm not raising this point to be pedantic or discount the tragedy. I just think it's important to have an accurate understanding of the organizational structure if one wants to make meaningful changes to it.

ICE is a recent phenomenon whose creation was only due to 9/11 attacks. Prior everything they did was handled by other organizations more effectively.

Before 9/11 nothing. For the last two decades, it's almost like cruelty is a requirement to work in that dept. USCIS and CPB are still alright though.

Recent, immediate politics bearing on the agency here aside, we like to philosophically separate ourselves from the government in discourse, rather than seeing it as one part of our own, singular, cohesive society.

see also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Sense_(pamphlet)

etc.