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Re:Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss by NeedMoreTea on Thursday August 22, 2019 @10:50AM (#20768704)
Why? The Allies fought and won WW2 without fascism. The UK had a coalition government of the two major parties for most of the war.

We need a WW2 scale response, perhaps with similar restrictions like rationing - only this time of carbon or flights etc. Once some nations are active, others will join. Perhaps we need to see carbon and environmental impacts baked into import tariffs to "encourage" reluctant others to join.

Re:Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss by Reason077 on Thursday August 22, 2019 @11:00AM (#20768837)
”The UK had a coalition government of the two major parties for most of the war.”

This was itself a suspension of normal democratic procedures and conventions. No elections were held in the UK between 1935 and the conclusion of the war in 1945.

Re:Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss by NeedMoreTea on Thursday August 22, 2019 @11:11AM (#20768959)
Rather unavoidable don't you think? Mass mobilisation then cities being bombed and millions overseas makes a normal democratic election a tad difficult. Hence the continuation of National Government.

The thirties had a succession of mostly weak coalitions in response to the Great Depression.

Re:Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss by tomjen3 on Thursday August 22, 2019 @12:02PM (#20769536)
The restrictions on freedom of speech, etc in the UK during WWII would easily be called facists today, and they are entirely incompatible with the US constitution.

I would also argue that rationing in general is incompatible with a free country. If necessary add a fair tax that is ear-marked to deal with global warming and which ofsets the damage. No reason to add more bureaucracy.

Re:Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss by NeedMoreTea on Friday August 23, 2019 @01:19AM (#20774706)
Depends - All countries restrict speech, including the US, it's only the degree. US Supreme court felt restricting speech against the draft in WW1 was constitutional, and only overridden half a century later. Limiting freedom of speech somewhat is miles away from becoming fascist.

I don't see how rationing impacts a free country one way or another as it's merely a method of achieving a fair distribution of a limited resource. The US also had rationing in WW2, introduced after Pearl Harbor. Was the US still a free country?

Re:Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss by tomjen3 on Saturday August 24, 2019 @01:11PM (#20788342)
I would argue that it was less free.

But more to the point: rationing is stupid, since you are strictly better of taxing the good you want to limit, and if necessary spend some of the tax in direct payments to those with the least income. The free market will take care of pricing the use of the taxed commodity correctly and the poor will be better of.

Re:Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss by NeedMoreTea on Sunday August 25, 2019 @12:08PM (#20793698)
Rationing isn't stupid, nor taxing necessarily better. If there's time it's no doubt better to start with taxation and see how far that gets us. Quite possibly not far enough:

In the case of wartime fuel rationing, and perhaps if we were to end up with a carbon ration, it achieves a fair distribution, without the wealthy simply being able to pay extra not to participate. With enough wealth someone may not care that something carries a punitive tax rate, and they can continue being part of the problem.

In times of crisis, such as wartime or a failing ecosystem, we may find that ability to pay your way out of it unacceptable. Reasonably so in my opinion.

Re:Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss by bryanlarsen on Thursday August 22, 2019 @11:04AM (#20768874)
We don't need a WW2 scale response, dedicating our entire economy to the effort. We need an Iraq war scale response: a small multiple trillions of dollars. And just like the Iraq war, the main impact to the American consumer will be in a big jump at the gas pumps and a significant chunk of their taxes going towards the effort.
Re:Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss by creaghpatr on Thursday August 22, 2019 @10:57AM (#20768799)
If Climate Change bombs Pearl Harbour or another military target, we will probably go to war with it.
Re:Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss by raxxorrax on Thursday August 22, 2019 @10:51AM (#20768719)
Instead of fascism you could opt for any ideology that leads to conflict and war that has a gigantic death toll. Fascism isn't really known for sudden deindustrialization and everyone becoming flower hippies though.

But at that point I would opt for letting climate change hit. In the absence of catastrophic events we will need more energy today than we needed yesterday. So either we find a solution to increasing needs or problems will arise.

Re:Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss by Reason077 on Thursday August 22, 2019 @11:08AM (#20768916)
”In the absence of catastrophic events we will need more energy today than we needed yesterday.”

In developed economies, this hasn’t been true in recent years.

Energy use (electricity, gas, coal, etc) peaked during the 2000s and has been mainly in decline since, despite economic and population growth.

Through improved technology, we have been able to extract more economic value from less energy. Hopefully this trend will continue.

Re:Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss by BurningFrog on Thursday August 22, 2019 @10:50AM (#20768699)
Fascism does not have a good track record of accomplishing big goals.
Re:Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss by pat12 on Thursday August 22, 2019 @11:02AM (#20768857)
I'm much more worried by that kind of extremism than by climate change itself.

Climate change could well kill us all, but at least we'll die free.

Re:Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss by adrianN on Thursday August 22, 2019 @11:05AM (#20768888)
Being dead is permanent. Being unfree can be changed.
Re:Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss by pat12 on Thursday August 22, 2019 @11:09AM (#20768934)
Yes, by moving to another planet for the opponents, good luck with that...
Re:Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss by Reason077 on Thursday August 22, 2019 @10:52AM (#20768727)
Hopefully it won’t come down to outright fascism, but the way our democracies work need to change in order to encourage more long term thinking on issues like climate change.

Politicians and voters too often act in short term self-interest rather than long-term economic and environmental interests.

“Give me that tax cut, big pickup truck, and cheap gas! Leave it to our grandchildren to figure out how to survive in the face of catastrophic global heating. Not our problem!”

Re:Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss by Aunche on Thursday August 22, 2019 @11:10AM (#20768943)
I think a huge cultural change is definitely possible. Residents of India, for example, eat 3% of the meat that people in America [1]. A lot of it is because India is poorer, but a lot of it is due to cultural differences as well.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_meat_cons...

Re:Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss by fullshark on Thursday August 22, 2019 @10:58AM (#20768808)
Or technology. If things like renewable energies and lab grown meat become cheaper and of higher quality than the natural/carbon emitting version then that changes the equation dramatically.

But I agree "everyone emit less carbon and hamstring your economy" will not work without literal worldwide fascism.

Re:Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss by pier25 on Thursday August 22, 2019 @10:54AM (#20768748)
Maybe not fascism, but a benevolent dictatorship.

Anyway, that won't happen. At some point the effects of climate change will be so evident that everyone will scream for action. And at that point it will be too late to do anything meaningful.

Re:Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss by nharada on Thursday August 22, 2019 @10:54AM (#20768742)
Even if that were the only way, what are the odds fascists care about this problem enough to solve it? Clearly low: look at Brazil right now
Re:Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss by CalRobert on Thursday August 22, 2019 @10:36AM (#20768504)
Why is that?

Also, I detest fascism - but devil's advocate - is fascism worse than literal extinction?

Re:Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss by RobertRoberts on Thursday August 22, 2019 @10:43AM (#20768611)
Lebensraum ("living space") [0] was an argument used to justify the same thing. We don't have enough room for everyone...

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum

Re:Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss by daenz on Thursday August 22, 2019 @10:58AM (#20768810)
Because I don't believe people and businesses can accomplish the individual environmental goals, much less fast enough, on their own. If human contribution to climate change is a result of aggregate behavior, then we're talking about drastically changing the micro behaviors (what you can eat, how you travel, no black markets, etc etc) of everyone on earth. I believe that can only be accomplished through extreme authoritarian control. As people start realizing they can't do it on their own and the various climate deadlines approach and pass, I believe they'll be more pliable to extreme forms of government.

>but devil's advocate - is fascism worse than literal extinction?

That's the question everyone will have to answer, and it probably boils down to the core of that person's philosophy. People who say "no" though should really consider all of the ugly side-effects that result from all-powerful authoritarian entities being able to control lives on a micro level.

Re:Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss by CalRobert on Thursday August 22, 2019 @12:12PM (#20769624)
Those side effects are hideous. Slavery, etc.

But I said "extinction". Meaning everyone - you, me, my kid, etc. dying, maybe horribly.

Re:Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss by daenz on Thursday August 22, 2019 @02:33PM (#20771075)
The decision has biased ambiguity. There is no such guarantee that a climate change extinction event will kill off all life, but if you are artificially adding that constraint, you should add a similar artificial constraint to what the fascist government is guaranteed to do or not do, or remove both constraints.
Re:Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss by throwaway5752 on Thursday August 22, 2019 @10:46AM (#20768651)
"Also, I detest fascism - but devil's advocate - is fascism worse than literal extinction?"

Why in the world do you think that democratic structures will make it intact through a descent into extinction. I'm not going to cite Mad Max as a sociological point, but society will break down under unmitigated global warming. When food and water safety cannot be met, law loses its authority. You can see this on a small scale after cyclone landfalls.

Re:Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss by CalRobert on Thursday August 22, 2019 @12:10PM (#20769603)
I don't. You and I agree.
Re:Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss by moduspol on Thursday August 22, 2019 @10:48AM (#20768676)
Presenting the choice as between fascism and "literal extinction" is exactly why public support isn't there.
Re:Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss by briantakita on Thursday August 22, 2019 @11:02AM (#20768856)
Fascists use the threat of "literal extinction" (or something like it) to "convince" their audience & opponents.
Re:Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss by guscost on Thursday August 22, 2019 @10:37AM (#20768522)
“Live free or die”
Re:Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss by rficcaglia on Thursday August 22, 2019 @10:47AM (#20768665)
This is why we will never have consensus on remediation climate change. It’s not just individual anarchists but whole governments who will adopt this “me or not you” attitude.
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Re:Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss by iron0013 on Thursday August 22, 2019 @01:27PM (#20770416)
So you think the comment above that advocates for fascism is referring to the Italian political party? Or are you just trying to muddy the water about what fascism actually is and who is a fascist?