News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by dcolkitt on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @01:55PM (#20759590)
A lot of financial transactions and central clearinghouses require participants to post collateral. For example if an insurance company enters into an interest rate swap with a bank, both sides will have to post some percent of the contract's notional value in escrow. This protects both sides from counterparty risk (i.e. what if the insurance company goes out of business and can't pay its side of the swap).

The collateral needs to take the form of low-risk, liquid securities. Usually government bonds. Bringing a big bag full of cash to a derivatives exchange is not accepted. If you're a big financial institution, you have no choice but to buy government bonds. Even if they're negative yielding.

Since 2008, there's been a massive increase in financial regulations. Policy-makers have desperately pushed to make banks and other financial institutions less risky. That mostly means much higher capital requirements and more central clearing. In turn that means the demand for holding high-quality government has exploded.

Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by SilasX on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @02:04PM (#20759708)
There's no electronic cash account they can put up? If not, why not, and why can't we enable something like that so people aren't forced to buy bonds in order to hold cash?
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by dageshi on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @02:20PM (#20759925)
It would be counter productive to society. Put money in a bank, the bank lends it out, the money serves society buy financing a new business or perhaps consumption but either way it is doing something. Lend it to the government in the form of bonds and they'll spend it on something.

If it just goes into the cash account you're describing, it does nothing but exist, in the event of recessions this would be severely dangerous to a countries financial system because it would be the safest place to store your money, safer even than bonds, so at the exact time when the economy needs cheap credit, interest rates would rise as money drains into these electronic cash accounts.

Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by Mvhsz on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @02:36PM (#20760119)
That makes sense but I have a follow up question. What forces this? For example, what's to stop a single entity from reaping the rewards of using cash while everyone else buys bonds to keep the economy moving. Is it a government regulation? an agreement between large institutions? or are the gains to each individual entity large enough that the negative yield is worth it?
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by boxy310 on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @03:15PM (#20760559)
Cash or a bank demand account is not without their own inherent risks. A fire, robbery, or forced currency exchange could destroy the value of the physical commodity of cash, and the FDIC only insures individual account bank deposits up to a certain limit so a bank institution failure could cause losses to individual accounts.
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by Mvhsz on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @04:00PM (#20761065)
Ok you're arguing that there is no such thing as a liquid store of value that that offers a better return than a negative yield government bond?

So let's say I'm a bank with a stack of 1B in high denomination central bank notes. I calculate the rate of return as zero minus the annual cost of securing those and the annual risk that they are stolen or destroyed. Inflation isn't a factor because the bond is in the same currency. Based on your explanation that rate of return will be lower than the -0.11% that I would get from a german 30 year bond today. And there's simply nothing I can exchange those central bank notes for that would do any better than the bond.

Like OP I've never understood negative yield debt and I'm trying really hard to.

Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by YawningAngel on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @04:53PM (#20761708)
Arguably, the combined cost and risk of loss when you store a pile of cash in a secured cellar is greater than 11bp.

There's also the fact that bonds can appreciate, so even if on the face of it you're taking an 11bp hit that might not be true in practice.

Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by AdrianB1 on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @04:20PM (#20761254)
Not counter productive to the society: as money have nothing behind and central banks can just print it, they can print or electronically grant any amount to anyone needing it. This would not affect the trust in the value of the money because there is no such value. What is $1 or 1 Euro backed by? An ounce of Moon dust?
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by avn2109 on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @04:30PM (#20761385)
The fundamental demand for dollars and euros is caused by the fact that every April, you need to have a bunch of them. And if you don't, eventually men with guns will take you to jail.
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by AdrianB1 on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @08:34PM (#20763485)
It is different here, you don't pay the taxes yourself, they are subtracted from your salary by the employer and paid on your behalf. it is not a service you receive, the state does not trust you will pay. When you leave half of the salary on the pay day and then pay another 20% taxes on anything you buy, not many people would pay something in April, even with the men with guns threat.
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by Scoundreller on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @10:46PM (#20764186)
It’s a funny system where citizens aren’t trusted but corporations are.
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by perl4ever on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @10:17PM (#20764028)
In the US, the government also withholds taxes from your paycheck, and in other circumstances.
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by chimeracoder on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @02:37PM (#20760139)
This is sort of correct, but it also doesn't address the point that this setup can't exist, logically, with fiat currency.

There is no way to hold money that isn't ultimately lent to or borrowed from some other entity. You can store cash under your mattress, but even that's money that you've effectively lent to the government (the seigniorage of storing it under your mattress means that you've now given them the ability to print that same amount of money at zero extra cost).

This is harder to wrap your head around, but once you understand the principle - money is always at work, no matter what form it's in - it's a lot easier to understand the flow of money on a macro or international scale.

Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by dragonwriter on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @02:45PM (#20760233)
> This is sort of correct, but it also doesn't address the point that this setup can't exist, logically, with fiat currency.

Yes, it can. It can't exist with the game playing that exists with most modern fiat currencies to create the illusion that they are something other than fiat of the issuing government, which creates a lot of artificial debt to create the illusion of a government constrained by the same fiscal concerns that apply to a country using commodity or foreign fiat currency rather than its own fiat.

But this is a behavioral hack to reduce the likelihood of a particular undesirable course of monetary policy (unrestrained money printing), not fundamental to the nature of fiat currency.

Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by SilasX on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @02:34PM (#20760083)
So people should be forced to invest their money even if they don't think any of the ventures are worthwhile? And physical cash shouldn't exist either?
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by rags2riches on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @03:32PM (#20760745)
If you describe negative interest rates as "forcing people to invest their money", how would you describe deflation?

Money is debt. You hold something now and expect somebody else to give you something of value for it in the future. But the future is always uncertain. You may lose out on the deal by holding on to your money. But you seem to be demanding that somebody somehow should guarantee that people never do lose by holding on, no matter what. Who would that somebody be? How could that even work?

Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by y4mi on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @03:53PM (#20761003)
Money was debt. It's how it got invented after all.

It's not so clear cut anymore. Most currencies aren't backed by anything anymore nor are they tied to any yearly returns. They've become arbitrary numbers manipulated by central banks to control the economy.

Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by blackflame7000 on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @03:54PM (#20761004)
You would have to back the money with something physical such as the Gold Standard. An Oz of gold today will still be an Oz of gold tomorrow. Furthermore, the rarity of gold makes the amount in circulation relatively constant.
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by zeveb on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @05:07PM (#20761856)
The problem is that the purchasing power of gold isn't relatively constant: what you can buy with 1 oz. today and what you can buy with 1 oz. tomorrow are not necessarily the same — so you have much the same problem.

Moreover, the relative constancy of the gold supply is a problem, because as the economy grows that makes each unit of gold more valuable … which leads to deflation, which is far worse than inflation, and can lead to utter economic desolation.

I hate fiat money, I really do: I hate that governments can inflate their way out of debts and inflate away my savings. But gold — appealing as it is — is even worse.

Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by blackflame7000 on Thursday August 22, 2019 @01:00AM (#20764785)
1 oz. of gold doesn't change from day to day, rather, only people's opinion of it changes. In that sense, is there anything you can think of that people would want as much or more in the future than they do today? I can think of maybe 1 thing, sex, but I don't even want to begin to imagine how a system like that would work haha.

Ultimately I agree that fiat currency is a necessary evil because of the ability to expand with the economy.

Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by wetpaws on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @09:27PM (#20763786)
Gold is essentially the same plus liquidity trap (think of Bitcoin and it's deflationary nature)
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by chimeracoder on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @02:38PM (#20760149)
> So people should be forced to invest their money even if they don't think any of the ventures are worthwhile? And physical cash shouldn't exist either?

Physical cash is also debt (backed by the full faith and credit of the US government, in the case of the US, or the relevant issuer in the case of other fiat currencies).

Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by SilasX on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @02:41PM (#20760191)
Non-central fallacy: Yes, it technically meets one definition of "liability", and is therefore debt; it is not "being invested in a venture" in the sense of this discussion.
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by chimeracoder on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @02:44PM (#20760229)
> Non-central fallacy: Yes, it technically meets one definition of "liability", and is therefore debt; it is not "being invested in a venture" in the sense of this discussion.

Except it is being invested. That's a major part of the role that the government plays when interacting with the macroeconomy.

Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by SilasX on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @02:50PM (#20760289)
Then let me try phrasing it a third way:

So people should be forced to invest their money beyond the extent to which holding that money inherently counts as an investment, even if they don't think any of the ventures that they directly invest in are worthwhile?

The fact that government "is debt backed by full faith and credit etc etc etc" does not answer the substance of the question I was actually asking, and which should have been clear from the context I was asking.

Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by arcticbull on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @03:43PM (#20760881)
Your job as part of social contract of living in a market-based economy is to allocate capital in the most productive way possible to maximize efficiency of the whole. What this means, is that if you believe no ventures are valuable, you allocate your capital in cash. If you believe ventures will outperform cash, you invest in ventures. So you're "forced" in the same way you're "forced" not to be homeless, have a job, and not hit people. It's a way of life.
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by athrowaway3z on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @03:28PM (#20760707)
Physical cash should exist.

But your first question is much more interesting in what it seems to imply.

If i understand it correctly, the converse would be: entities are free to not invest their money when there are no worthwhile ventures.

This sounds all well and good on an individual level. But by what logic or mechanism can the ~200 countries that exist have the ability to 'hold' money and not 'invest' it?

Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by dageshi on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @04:25PM (#20761309)
Of course physical cash should exist. There just isn't enough of it and it isn't practical for large investors.
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by dmoy on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @02:09PM (#20759767)
Deposit guarantee in Germany is only like 100k Euro. This is for institutions buying tens or hundreds of millions of Euro.
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by kgwgk on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @02:39PM (#20760164)
People can hold cash in bank accounts but they also yield negative interest rates (for balances above some threshold).
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by dharmab on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @02:08PM (#20759762)
An account that large would require insurance, management and security/auditing. Stuff you don't need with bonds since the government provides those.

I'm sure if government bonds were negative for a long enough time an alternative product would appear.

Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by AdrianB1 on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @04:18PM (#20761229)
Actually cash is a form of that: a $100 bill is a bank note that you have $100 in the bank. In theory if you want to deposit $1 million, the bank should just give you a note for a $1 million deposit - that would be a $1 million bank note. But all this was true when the bank note was for the gold or silver that was deposited in the bank. Now every bank note is just a paper about an amount of nothingness :)
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by perl4ever on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @10:14PM (#20764015)
Some people have asked, if US banks pay a minute amount of interest in savings, and the Fed pays like 2% or more on deposits by banks, why can't someone just start a bank that stores deposits at the Fed and passes through the interest?

And the answer appears to be, because the Fed won't let them, because they are afraid it could undermine the regular banks.

Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by TheSoftwareGuy on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @02:03PM (#20759701)
Why would a derivatives exchange not accept cash? what are people buying those derivatives with?

Furthermore, how could any bond (or anything at all for that matter) be less risky than cash? the market value of a bond may change over time but $1 will always be worth $1. Inflation may change the purchasing power of that dollar but then the exact same mechanism will effect the bonds as well.

Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by dmoy on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @02:06PM (#20759730)
Cash has risks:

* risk of physical destruction

* risk of physical theft

* risk of forgery

etc etc

There's some nonzero cost to accept, handle, vet, store, etc for cash. That's not even including if there are extra reporting laws or other for large amounts of cash, which just adds to the overhead.

Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by jonathankoren on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @02:29PM (#20760026)
These are all concerns with paper, not “cash” as it’s commonly considered in finance.

Have $xx,xxx in a checking account at a national bank. It’s a database entry, not a pallet of pennies. Furthermore, with fractional reserve banking, I sincerely doubt if there’s enough coins and bills in the country to account for the total “cash” in all the accounts, let alone all the assets.

Similarly, everyone involved in these transactions have access to the same banking system. There’s no reason you need to fly a C-5 with pallets of Swiss francs around. (Even then, it seemed absurd since both governments could access Swiss banks.)

Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @03:27PM (#20760704)
> Have $xx,xxx in a checking account at a national bank

At the scales of financial infrastructure, bank deposits are not cash. They are debt issued by banks. The point of collateral is to give a bank’s word weight.

Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by perl4ever on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @10:20PM (#20764044)
Or, based on what I read in financial statements, "cash" and "short term securities" kind of blur together.

Cash is more of a general category of things that are suitable to use for similar purposes, than one specific thing.

Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by dmoy on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @04:10PM (#20761167)
Sure but then you just introduced a completely different type of risk, which is the collapse of that bank.
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by jonathankoren on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @05:07PM (#20761859)
Bank collapse is pretty rare. Even accounting for 2008, there’s now a de facto government insurance plan for banks. i.e. Too big to fail.
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by dmoy on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @09:26PM (#20763781)
Banks collapse often in the US. There have been 63 since 2008 with over a billion in assets.

28 since 2010.

In germany unless you're with DBAG it's not clear the government would step in and save you.

Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by dmoy on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @09:53PM (#20763919)
8 US banks collapsed in 2017, as another example.
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by perl4ever on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @10:25PM (#20764063)
Wikipedia has a list of the specific banks, and most of the recent ones have been quite small.

e.g. The Farmers and Merchants State Bank of Argonia with about $34M in assets.

The FDIC has stepped in as expected with all of these, I believe.

Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by dmoy on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @11:08PM (#20764300)
Yes, but the FDIC equivalent in Germany is 100k, which doesn't help you if you're in the business of buying 30 year bonds (usually that's institution buying >10MM)
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by jonathankoren on Thursday August 22, 2019 @03:58PM (#20771813)
No one buys a 10 million dollar, 30 year bond from a bank with 34 million in assets.

It’s disingenuous to claim that all banks are equal in terms of capabilities, assets, or risk.

Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by dmoy on Thursday August 22, 2019 @05:37PM (#20772613)
Agreed, but you certainly do it from a bank in Germany that isn't dbag. And if you're not dbag it's not such a sure thing that the government will come and save you.

Or say in the US, you'd buy that from US Bank, which isn't in the big 4 consumer, or top few commercial, and it could be let to fail.

It's still safer than a tiny bank, but it's not as safe as government bonds.

That's all it really boils down to - you pay a bit extra to get more safety.

You may be comfortable depositing $10MM in a US Bank reg D account, but I would not be.

Well actually for US Bank specifically I might because I know their business model is incredibly conservative. But replace that with another large but not big4 bank.

Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by joncrane on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @04:08PM (#20761144)
and this is exactly why there is a market for negative yield bonds.

The true decision point isn't 0%. It's the rate for the risk/cost of holding cash.

BTW has there been any research toward what this rate actually is?

Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by tdhoot on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @02:09PM (#20759768)
I think the answer to both your questions is because there are costs to securely storing cash. That also makes cash risky compared to bonds, where you are not responsible for the security.
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by SilasX on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @02:35PM (#20760097)
Why is everyone responding to the question under the same misinterpretation, that it means "cash" as in "physical banknotes" rather than "electronic Euros"? I know the principle of charity is hard sometimes, but come on.
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by diego on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @02:51PM (#20760304)
Why would you expect that a bank would hold your electronic euros for less money than a negative yield bond would cost?
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by secabeen on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @02:42PM (#20760196)
Because a bank can go under, and you can lose your money in excess of the insured amount.
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by SilasX on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @02:43PM (#20760212)
Not if it's a bank that specifically caters to this crowd and doesn't take any of the normal risks associated with lending.
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by kgwgk on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @02:52PM (#20760313)
They would have two options:

A) keep the euro notes in their vault, which only works if you deposit paper bills in the first place

B) keep electronic deposits in the ECB and pay interests to do so

In either case if they give back the money to the clients when they ask for it how do you expect them to cover their operating costs (plus the interest they are charged by the central bank in case b)?

Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by beamatronic on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @03:39PM (#20760842)
You mean like... a German bank? They will happily do what you ask. For a small fee. In the form of a negative interest rate.
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by dmoy on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @04:26PM (#20761338)
And your deposit won't be insured past like 100k euro.
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by rags2riches on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @03:00PM (#20760401)
This imaginary bank would still have costs. What would be their income?
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by mdemare on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @03:24PM (#20760658)
Excellent question. There is a company, The Narrow Bank, that has the same idea, but they didn’t get a banking license from the Fed. Matt Levine, whose newsletter you should clearly start reading, has the details: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-09-06/fed-re...
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by SilasX on Thursday August 22, 2019 @10:18AM (#20768320)
This is the first responsive answer I've gotten to that question.
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by tdhoot on Monday August 26, 2019 @04:06PM (#20803207)
Probably because the alternative interpretation makes the answer so trivial that it's not worth assuming?
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by Jabbles on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @02:07PM (#20759736)
A large amount of cash is expensive to store safely (fire) and securely (theft).
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by llcoolv on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @02:17PM (#20759881)
Not only - AFAIR the Colombian Steve Jobs had problems with humidity too - 2.1 billion 80s' USD lost to flooding and rotting is what I would call real liquidity :D And also rats I think.
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by seandhi on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @02:22PM (#20759949)
It’s extremely insulting to refer to Escobar as the Colombian Steve Jobs, if that is the connection you are making.
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by grapehut on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @02:38PM (#20760144)
Escobar conservatively killed thousands of people. I wouldn't worry too much about insulting him.
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by seandhi on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @07:44PM (#20763158)
It’s insulting to Colombians.
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by perl4ever on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @10:28PM (#20764074)
Maybe it's insulting to Steve Jobs.
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by unreal37 on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @02:54PM (#20760333)
It's funny though.
Re:Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negat... by pergadad on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @01:59PM (#20759645)
In cas that's not obvious I just want to add that the collateral allows you to only keep a fraction of what you're investing in actual collateral. The exact numbers depend on context, but imagine you buy/hold collateral and for that can loan/borrow five or ten or twenty times as much.