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Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by ChrisSD on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @01:57PM (#20749873)
Wait but that's literally what the auto complete feature does. Most users understand the value of the feature (they use it!) but there's a good reason to spell out the cost too.

I agree with the criticism that they should draw a clearer line between the cost and the benefit but there's nothing to be gained by softening the language used to describe the cost.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by chucksmash on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @02:20PM (#20750182)
I'd naively consider a keylogger to be software that captures your keypresses universally.

I use Firefox and have search suggestions disabled there so I am somewhat sympathetic to their point.

That said, calling server-side autocomplete on a field you explicitly are typing in strikes me as about as sensible and forthright as calling an Amazon text field that takes my credit card number a card skimmer.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by davvolun on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @03:01PM (#20750679)
> calling server-side autocomplete on a field you explicitly are typing in strikes me as about as sensible and forthright as calling an Amazon text field that takes my credit card number a card skimmer

Exactly, and waters down the impact of the termminology. If "card skimmer" is anything that can read a credit card, than the term is meaningless for security.

If "keylogger" is anything connected to the web that responds to a keypress...

GNU is risking turning into the boy who cried wolf here.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by gregknicholson on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @07:34PM (#20753310)
> GNU is risking turning into the boy who cried wolf here.

As with a lot of the FSF's messaging, I think the substance of the message may be correct, but the way they convey it just isn't effective.

If this is for a general audience(!), no-one was ever convinced by the 48th item in a list who wasn't already convinced by the 47th. You don't persuade people just by being right, and certainly not by banging on about the very many subtly-different ways in which you're right. Pick few strong examples and prosecute those decisively.

If this is a resource for campaigners, set out the audience and intent before you start. Preface it with something like “Here are various ways that certain aspects of Google's software can be seen as indistinguishable from malware. They may be useful counterarguments if someone suggests Google's software is trustworthy.”

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by c0vfefe on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @01:58PM (#20759641)
There's a lot to appreciate about Stallman, but as an ideologue, he's never going to prioritize a gentle & incremental articulation of his ideas. We could call it a failure to empathize, but you see ideologues all over undermining their communication by making it as distilled & radical as possible. But that's not what tends to convince other humans they're wrong about something.
Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by pessimizer on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @04:23PM (#20751659)
How about an Amazon text field that takes your credit card number before you submit the form?

There's no warning that a text field autocompletes, and no reason to assume all users are tech savvy enough to realize that google has to see every character typed to send back recommendations.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by aflag on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @02:35PM (#20750387)
There are keyloggers targeted to specific fields too. It depends on what vulnerability is being exploited to install a keylogger.

I think the description of autocomplete as a keylogger is a good fit from the security perspective.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by hutzlibu on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @04:40PM (#20751865)
No, as a keylogger is the term for a malware to capture ALL your keystrokes in secret (to usually later fish out the interesting ones like passwords). It is misleading, to mix it up with a software, that captures your textinput from a textfield, even though it is not communicated clearly to the average user that his text goes to a server.
Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by yarrel on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @04:42PM (#20751888)
If the text field sent everything you type but didn't autocomplete, it would be spyware.

Autocompleting doesn't change that.

The Amazon text field would have to send your credit card number for a credit check without telling you to compare.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by judge2020 on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @04:57PM (#20752049)
The autocomplete provides a valuable service: it shows you suggestions for search terms; it's similar to if the credit card number is sent to the server and the server sends back whether or not the number is a valid credit card number (although this is now done on the client side).

It can also be turned off extremely easy, not exactly what we know as "malware" if it allows you to turn off its "malicious" activities.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by fuzz4lyfe on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @05:12PM (#20752204)
>I'd naively consider a keylogger to be software that captures your keypresses universally.

On Windows asking for a handler for all key presses will often trigger the antivirus, while asking for a single application often will not.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by tylerl on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @02:35PM (#20750383)
The costs? Are you joking? Of to the 2 Billion people using Chrome, point out just one for whom the privacy implications around autocomplete have imposed a non-theoretical cost. There's the cost you impose on yourself for paranoia, but lay THAT at the feet of the FSF.

And if you say bandwidth you're fired. It's privacy the FSF is grumbling about. And for that it's been rhetoric and theoretical suffering, but no actual real-world damage. And not for lack of adoption.

Put that cost in your pipe and smoke it.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by jmkb on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @02:55PM (#20750615)
If your browsing history is of value, than giving it (or even just the portions of it that are manually typed into the url bar) away is a cost to you. You can't point to a dollar amount on an invoice, so in that sense it's not "non-theoretical." But if you believe that personal information can be valuable -- and it's pretty clear that it can, especially in the aggregate -- then calling this a "cost" is not a joke.
Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by adjkant on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @04:00PM (#20751382)
Google already stores your browsing history in the cloud if you're signed in, which most users are. The "keylogging" wouldn't really add any value to the data, and thus I don't really buy that cost.

If you're not logged in, as I'm sure FSF people are, then this is a much bigger deal, but it doesn't apply to the vast majority of people.

All that said, the keylogger would take a good deal of interpretation to get a complete or even partial history, since autocomplete choices would likely be chosen anyways, not fully typed out URL's. If they send that history anyways on any time you press enter, the autocomplete feature again doesn't matter because they have it with our with.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by tylerl on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @05:05PM (#20752132)
Your browsing history, as a rule, is not actually valuable in any meaningful sense. If it were, then your cost would then have to be an opportunity cost, the lost opportunity to sell which you didn't take. Except if that's the case, it's not the autocomplete that stopped you; you could sell your history still anyway, autocomplete or no.

Also, your aggregate value argument is quite apt: It's valuable to know what percentage of a city speaks English, but the fact that you personally do or don't is of no real value at all, specifically because it's "your" individual data, not despite the fact. And insisting that you've been hypothetically robbed of your entitled half penny for disclosing your language preference to the McDonalds cashier is precisely as sensible as complaining about the value of your half-typed URLs.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by shrimp_emoji on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @03:28PM (#20750978)
Unquantifiable externalities.

At the end of the day, serverside autocomplete is useful, and coal is cheap!

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by ariwilson on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @03:57PM (#20751341)
My thermometer is a pretty clear indicator of a quantifiable externality of coal.
Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by greyhair on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @10:31AM (#20757553)
Your thermometer is only a good indicator if it provides a comparison of the current temperature to the average temperature for that moment plus windowed samples over the last one hundred years. Otherwise, it just tells you the current temperature. </s>
Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by saagarjha on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @03:15PM (#20750845)
> point out just one for whom the privacy implications around autocomplete have imposed a non-theoretical cost

Type "p" in the address bar at work?

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by tylerl on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @04:36PM (#20751804)
And again, you're talking hypothetical. Anything is harmful in theory. I can think of a thousand ways in which privacy itself is harmful in theory, it's not even hard. But unless it actually happens somewhere to someone it's quite likely my assumptions are faulty.
Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by pwinnski on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @04:09PM (#20751495)
paycomonline.com

Don't visit sites on work computers you don't want others to know about!

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by zeveb on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @03:55PM (#20751307)
> Of to the 2 Billion people using Chrome, point out just one for whom the privacy implications around autocomplete have imposed a non-theoretical cost.

You've never accidentally typed a password in a URL bar? You've never accidentally focussed the browser window when typing something you don't want Google or anyone else to know?

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by jammygit on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @02:06PM (#20750005)
Years ago I used to assume autocompletions were performed on device, not sent to a server