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Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by ska on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @01:08PM (#20749309)
It would ruin the "joke", but probably should have be deeply transcendental...

The real numbers are much stranger than they first appear, and a lot of early pedagogy is designed so that you don't look at this too hard.

After all, almost all reals are transcendental (but interestingly we only have proved a small handful of them).

Most numbers people have used in "regular life" are algebraic, obviously, but they are a countable subset so occur almost never, in the set.

Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by gnulinux on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @01:54PM (#20749831)
If you want to appreciate how strange real numbers are, check out Weierstrass function. It's a function that is continuous everywhere, but differentiable nowhere. In other words, it has a kink (i.e. a sharp corner) on ALL points.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weierstrass_function

Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by joker3 on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @06:09PM (#20752707)
Are you familiar with Conway's base 13 function? It's about as badly discontinuous as a real-valued function can be.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway_base_13_function

Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by gnulinux on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @07:39PM (#20753349)
This is fascinating. I vaguely remember this from a math class. Thanks for sharing.
Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by ska on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @01:59PM (#20749910)
That is an example of how strange real valued functions can be, and one that tests your understanding of continuity.

It's a standard example trotted out in elementary real analysis courses along with Cantor sets, etc. If you have a good lecturer, they might make you try and come up with an example like it as an exercise before you've seen it...

A good part of becoming competent at analysis is building up a grab bag of examples like this you can throw at new situations.

Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by im3w1l on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @11:24PM (#20754336)
> In other words, it has a kink (i.e. a sharp corner) on ALL points.

x sin(1/x) is continuous and non-differentiable at 0, but I wouldn't say it has a corner there.

A sharp corner to me means a point where the left and right derivatives both exist but are different.

Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by wutbrodo on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @03:30AM (#20755197)
I don't believe this is correct. That function isn't defined at 0. While it does have a limit, continuity at a point c requires that the limit as x->c = f(c), which obviously isn't the case here.
Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by im3w1l on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @04:35PM (#20761448)
So just define it to 0. You are correct but it's a minor detail.
Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by OscarCunningham on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @02:26AM (#20754964)
Can a function have that property at every point?
Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by im3w1l on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @03:16AM (#20755135)
Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by proc0 on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @03:50PM (#20751245)
Looks like black metal band logo. Brutal function.
Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by ska on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @04:30PM (#20751742)
You might also like the Cantor function, which is also known as "The Devils Staircase"

It is similarly used as an example, for a function that is continuous but not absolutely continuous.

cfL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor_function

Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by lanstin on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @05:34PM (#20752454)
If you like these sorts of things, there is a slim tome called "Counterexamples in Topology" which is very long list of similar weird things.
Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by anchpop on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @01:41PM (#20749697)
> After all, almost all reals are transcendental

It's even worse, almost all reals aren't even computable (let alone transcendental)

Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by ska on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @01:55PM (#20749848)
Honestly I don't think that's much worse from a "reals are weird" point of view, although it is another wrinkle that there is a strict subset which is even harder to pin down.
Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by drdeca on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @03:46PM (#20751173)
Even worse, almost all real numbers aren’t definable
Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by OscarCunningham on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @02:29AM (#20754975)
You can't define definability, because otherwise you could talk about the "least natural number not definable in fewer than n symbols" which is a contradiction for sufficiently large n.
Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by saagarjha on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @07:58PM (#20753450)
Doesn’t definability just depend on the system you’re using to generate numbers being able to represent it?
Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by drdeca on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @11:00PM (#20754242)
For any system we could use to define a real number, (and not just because we are mortal), the system could only define or uniquely specify countably many real numbers. Any countable set of real numbers has measure 0, and therefore, almost all real numbers cannot be defined/specified using that system.

This holds for whatever system you use which defines a (possibly partial) function from [ the set of finite (but unboundedly long) sequences of characters over a finite alphabet], to real numbers

Or equivalently, from the natural numbers to the real numbers.

Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by inflatableDodo on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @04:58PM (#20752054)
Hence dartboards have the mathematical property that a dart thrown into one is infinitely more likely to land on an integer than on a computable real (or a natural number, but for different reasons).
Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by saagarjha on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @07:55PM (#20753438)
How so? Aren’t all integers computable real numbers?
Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by inflatableDodo on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @09:06PM (#20753794)
Not in darts. You can prove this to your satisfaction, by attempting to reach the continuum between the integers.

The dart will bounce off the metal framey bit and stick into the forehead of local barfly, 'Very Angry Ron'. Then when you graph the result, violent discontinuities will appear in the function, across a wide range of scales.

These already have their own special set in category theory and are sometimes referred to, within the field, as; 'Assorted and Unreasonable Associates of Very Angry Ron'. That is, the other side of a reasonably big field, ideally with some cattle in the way.

Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by heavenlyblue on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @12:41PM (#20758926)
Google returns this exact post to the query of “Assorted and Unreasonable Associates of Very Angry Ron”.
Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by tripzilch on Thursday August 22, 2019 @08:31AM (#20767283)
Must be another one of those pesky self-citing researchers.
Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by inflatableDodo on Thursday August 22, 2019 @03:21PM (#20771483)
Please forgive me father, for indulging in the sins of Onan.
Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by aeneasmackenzie on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @07:00PM (#20753119)
That's ok, those ones aren't real.
Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by hyperpallium on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @01:23PM (#20749508)
When do the reals start making sense (beyond hand-waving explanations)?
Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by ska on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @02:02PM (#20749945)
Part of any good introduction to real analysis is going to be walking you through a bunch of this stuff until you first understand how much you had glossed over the details, then than the details are strange, and finally that you have a working understanding or at least comfort with techniques to reason about this.

Is that the same as making sense? Well to paraphrase a physicist, you don't so much understand it as get used to it.

One of the fun things about teaching this material is that usually students have been through years of calculus prior to it, and you get to watch the moment when they realize all of this stuff has been "hiding in plain sight".

Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by hyperpallium on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @03:56AM (#20755307)
John Von Neumann https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/11267/what-are-some...

Does the followong seem right to you?

Intuition often comes from relating a new thing to something known. So maths, as an abstraction of reality, initially has many sources of intuition.

Later maths never has exactly the same patterns as earlier maths (it's already abstracted; so same patterns would be the same thing, though it cam build-on). Eventually, it doesn't relate to anything known, and you have to create that familiarity from scratch.

That's hard... but if some stuff became known in the first place, why not this too? (One counter is that the other stuff was instinctively known, e.g. 3D space, or at least our minds are pre-shaped to know it, e.g. language).

Assuming math is open-ended, there'll always be new stuff that doesn't relate.

Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by opencl on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @01:50PM (#20749781)
To me at least it was when I took a real analysis course. Very difficult material but once it all 'clicked' I felt like it gave a lot of insight into the fundamentals of math and as a bonus finally offered a rigorous non-hand-wavey explanation of the fundamental theorem of calculus.
Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by stephencanon on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @01:58PM (#20749889)
Most people who say the real numbers make sense doesn't know what they're talking about. The real numbers are pretty bizarre no matter how much mathematics you've studied.

You can learn to prove things about them rigorously, and memorize a lot of properties, but very few people will ever develop an accurate intuition for them.

Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by selimthegrim on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @10:43AM (#20757686)
There’s a famous story of a seminar on p-adic numbers at Princeton where Harish-Chandra was in attendance and one of the audience brings up some intuition from ordinary primes and the speaker replies with a joke about the degenerate case of the real numbers.
Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by bob457 on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @02:13PM (#20750087)
I took two semester of graduate level applied analysis. The reals still don’t make sense to me. Those were definitely the hardest classes I’ve taken.
Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by klyrs on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @02:52PM (#20750568)
By the time you can grok the lesbegue measure?

Edit: A great way to unlearn bad intuition is through the study of counterexamples. A good starting point might be chapter 1 of Counterexamples in Analysis [1].

[1]https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/a4e7/eb352e4c44bf75d8fabaf7...

Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by btilly on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @03:23PM (#20750933)
The reals click for some people, and fail to click for others. What can I say?

For me it was once I really understood what a Cauchy sequence of rational numbers is, and how that is a real number. Let's see if I can explain that.

In math we have the following kind of construction in lots of places. We take some simple system, we construct some way of representing things from a more complex relationship. And then define some sort of equivalence. The new

This is a mouthful but you've seen it. Take the construction of the rational numbers from the integers. A rational number is just a pair of integers (n, m) with the second one not zero. It represents n/m. However there is an equivalence, 1/2 is the same number is 2/4. The equivalence is that (n, m) = (n', m') if and only if n * m' = n' * m.

You finish by defining operations as (n, m) + (n', m') = (n * m' + n' * m, m * m') and (n, m) * (n', m') = (n * n', m * m'). This looks like a mouthful, but it is exactly the rule that you're used to.

So we've seen this kind of construction before. (You do the same when constructing the integers from the natural numbers.)

So constructing the reals from the rationals is done as follows. Intuitively a real is a sequence of rationals that is converging. And two sequences of rationals are equivalent if they should converge to the same thing.

Where "converging" means that you have a sequence of rationals (x_1, x_2, x_3, ...) such that if we pick n, m "big enough", then x_n - x_m will be as close to 0 as we want. Or in usual Calculus notation, for every epsilon > 0 there is an N such that for every n and m both bigger than N, abs(x_n - x_m) < epsilon.

And (x_1, x_2, x_3, ...) should "converge to the same thing" as (y_1, y_2, y_3, ...) if (x_1 - y_1, x_2 - y_2, x_3 - y_3, ...) converges to 0. Or in usual Calculus notation, for every epsilon > 0 there is an N such that for every n bigger than N, abs(x_n - y_n) < epsilon.

You define operations pairwise. So (x_1, x_2, x_3, ...) + (y_1, y_2, y_3, ...) = (x_1 + y_1, x_2 + y_2, x_3 + y_3, ...).

Here is a sanity check. If you have a decimal representation, that gives us a sequence of rationals converging to that real, (3, 3.1, 3.14, 3.141, ....). Switch from base 10 to base 2, and you get a different sequence, but it is the same real. And the old chestnut, 1 = 0.99999... repeating is easy to verify.

And now work your way through the following axioms:

The algebraic axioms are easy.

1. There is a well-defined binary operation + such that x+y is always defined.

2. + is commutative, so x+y = y+x.

3. + is associative, so (x+y)+z = x+(y+z).

4. There is an additive identity 0 such that x+0 = x for all x.

5. Every x has an additive inverse called -x such that x + (-x) = 0

6. There is another binary operation called .

7. is commutative, x * y = y * x

8. * is associative, (x * y) * z = x * (y * z).

9. The distributive property holds. x * (y + z) = (x * y) + (x * z).

10. There is a multiplicative identity 1 different from 0.

11. Every x other than 0 has a multiplicative inverse 1/x such that x * (1/x) = 1.

And now the order axiom.

12. Every number is exactly one of positive, negative or 0. Or, more formally, there is a set P closed under addition and multiplication such that for all x, exactly one of three things is true: x is 0, x is in P, or -x is in P.

And then the tricky one. Completeness.

13. If X is a non-empty set of reals with an upper bound, it has a least upper bound. (For example the set of x such that x^2 - 2 < 0 is non-empty, it has an upper bound, and therefore it has a least upper bound. Which happens to be sqrt(2).)

To see that the order axiom holds, let x_1 be a rational number below the value of something in X, and y_1 be a rational number above an upper bound. And now we construct two sequences as follows.

At each step if (x_n + y_n) / 2 is an upper bound, then x_(n+1) = x_n and y_(n+1) = (x_n + y_n) / 2. Else x_(n+1) = (x_n + y_n) / 2 and y_(n+1) = y_n.

We can prove three things.

1. (y_1, y_2, y_3, ...) converges to an upper bound.

2. No upper bound can be below what (x_1, x_2, x_3, ...) converges to.

3. Both sequences are equivalent, they represent the same real.

The conclusion is that that real has to be the least upper bound.

If you can really get that, then congratulations! You understand the reals!

Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by ska on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @03:33PM (#20751036)
It is, I think, worth making a distinction between understanding a construction of the reals, and understanding the reals.
Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by btilly on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @05:12PM (#20752213)
There is such a distinction to be made.

However I personally found it very helpful in real analysis to be able to take any question about the reals back to how it relates to this construction. This greatly helped my intuition.

Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by Koshkin on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @06:55PM (#20753069)
IMHO, though, "an equivalence class of Cauchy sequences" is not the most intuitive representation of a real number. (A point on a line is; even Dedekind's cuts well-described in older editions of Baby Rudin are more intuitive.)
Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by btilly on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @01:09PM (#20759139)
My perspective differs.

Dedekind cuts have a special case at all of the rationals. Which is weird. And the whole construct the completion using equivalence classes of sequences construction is one you'll encounter a bunch of times in topology. So it is worth learning it properly.

Plus if you're into that kind of thing, you can also construct the p-adics this way. :-)

Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by Koshkin on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @03:42PM (#20751126)
Exactly. Moreover, a construction can be seen merely as a proof of the consistency of the set of axioms (i.e. it is the axioms rather than any particular construction that define what the reals are).
Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by SilasX on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @07:37PM (#20753335)
When you limit yourself to the computable reals.
Re:Calculus Is Deeply Irrational by slantaclaus on Friday August 23, 2019 @01:18AM (#20774701)
I think the title of my textbook in college Calculus II was “Transcendental Calculus”