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Re:People love working remotely by dustinmoris on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @09:20AM (#20746652)
> The big boss said "a 15 minute fact-to-face is better than a multi-day email chain"

I can't believe that people who are so out of touch with reality are still given so much responsibility at companies which they effectively unknowingly misuse to make everyone's life miserable.

There's nothing wrong about a multi day email chain. Sometimes it's the best communication tool, because non-critical/important things can be more efficiently being discussed in an email chain which doesn't disrupt everyone's work day. Secondly it is a nice way of keeping a log of ideas, thoughts and compromises which essentially lead to the final conclusion/solution. This gets documented for free and people can reference back to that email chain in the future which is hugely valuable, especially when the "big boss" conveniently likes to forget his own decisions.

Face to face lacks all of those nice features.

Secondly... there's A LOT more alternatives and other options inbetween F2F and long email chains. People can work 99% remotely and travel into an office one every couple weeks or per month for team bonding time.

Video conferencing is another great way of getting a F2F conversation done without the hassle of everyone being in the same physical place. More often video conferencing calls can even be more productive, because people are more conscious about the time spent in the call and also about the people who frequently contribute and those who just got invited along but never really participate. Makes it easier to trim attendees down to the ones who really need to be there and those who just can be sent a summary afterwards.

I can only hope that your new big boss will quickly get sacked and replaced by some young blood who has heard of instant messaging and video conferencing. Good luck!

Re:People love working remotely by nimblegorilla on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @11:38AM (#20748161)
> There's nothing wrong about a multi day email chain.

Email chains can work for some things, but they mostly suck compared to face to face meetings. You never know if someone else is silent because they agree, they haven't read the whole email, or they haven't taken time to write a response.

Most things able to be solved by email chains are better off in some sort of issue tracking or wiki system.

Re:People love working remotely by ownagefool on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @12:04PM (#20748505)
Face to face meetings also suck because the extroverts own the floor. You don't know if people didn't pipe up because they agree, or because they aren't rude enough to stop Bob talking, and now it's too late.
Re:People love working remotely by addicted on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @11:15PM (#20754303)
The same thing happens in email chains as well.

A good meeting lead can make sure they get everyone's input in a face to face without necessarily putting them on the spot. Sadly those are few and far in between.

I worked with one and they were excellent meetings. They got ideas out, and predicted possible issues better than any other meetings I've been part of.

Re:People love working remotely by thanatropism on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @03:39PM (#20751091)
I know both extroverts and introverts who are really bad at email type text communication.
Re:People love working remotely by ownagefool on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @04:37PM (#20751820)
Fair point.

I was mostly just making the counter point, however to expand on this, at least with the email thread you can take longer to compose your response or go talk to someone about it if you think it's important. It's viewed a bit weirder to follow up a face-to-face meeting with your counter points in an email.

But I actually just think communication is hard for a lot of people. Locking people in a room and expecting them to come up with a decision is a pretty poor way to work. Combining both text and talking, and giving enough time between discussion and decisions is probably a winner.

Re:People love working remotely by lanstin on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @06:38PM (#20752933)
Communication is a fundamentally hard problem. How to tell if a given semantic state has been replicated in the brain of the others. Really until people repeat back in their own words you have no idea; even then, they may have alarming different versions of some of the concepts used in the semantic state.
Re:People love working remotely by wolco on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @04:14PM (#20751572)
Equal playing field.
Re:People love working remotely by thanatropism on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @04:23PM (#20751667)
You’re missing it. Check your textually-adept privilege.

Seriously. I’ve always been a very good writer but people in STEM often aren’t.

Re:People love working remotely by ecnahc515 on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @07:35PM (#20753321)
And then when it's face to face, you have people who aren't lingually adept, what then? Take someone who speaks English as a second language. They may not be able to process what's being said in a face to face as fast as the topic is moving, but in an email thread they can take their time to read it all, and compose a response (which may take longer for them due to English being a second language). It's not as simple as either of you make it seem.
Re:People love working remotely by alexhutcheson on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @12:56PM (#20749161)
> Most things able to be solved by email chains are better off in some sort of issue tracking or wiki system.

In my experience, nothing except "bugs" and "customer support issues" are better in an issue tracking system. Issue trackers add too much overhead for end users, and the "structured data" features encourage people to adopt processes that require every user to think about what level of the hierarchy some issue belongs at, what tags to assign, who "owns" the issue, etc. For most communication, there ends up being a serious impedance mismatch between the structure of the data in the issue tracker and the natural flow of communication.

Re:People love working remotely by aNoob7000 on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @12:08PM (#20748552)
A face to face meeting is no silver bullet either. I've been to many meeting where someone with a strong opinion and with the manager's blessing takes over the conversation/agenda.

What I like about an email is that it allows you time to digest the information and then respond to someone.

Re:People love working remotely by lobotryas on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @12:13PM (#20748618)
It’s almost like both approaches have their pros, cons, and appropriate times when they should be used.

I like a combined arms approach. Start an email thread and if there is no timely reply, or consensus is getting hard to reach, walk over to the other person’s desk for a chat or call a meeting.

Re:People love working remotely by aserafini on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @05:00PM (#20752078)
Exactly. The ‘best’ communication method for an issue is entirely contextual.
Re:People love working remotely by notus on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @04:31PM (#20751750)
if only we could instantly message each other...
Re:People love working remotely by alexhutcheson on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @02:06PM (#20749995)
I haven't found any mode of communication that's as effective for building trust as face-to-face interaction. Video conferencing, email, tickets, etc. all work well for the "Let's make a decision on this issue" or "Let's get this specific thing done" use-case, but it's much harder to actually get to know someone and build trust over those mediums. That's unfortunate, because trust between people on a team is a huge force multiplier for getting things done.
Re:People love working remotely by eikenberry on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @02:15PM (#20750123)
And this is why you have occasional gatherings. To help establish trust and a better sense of community. Every remote position I've held has had at least a yearly get-together for just this reason.
Re:People love working remotely by viraptor on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @05:36PM (#20752466)
Also you can have small remote social gatherings. Have a lunch together from time to time (video, online) and chat about non-work things. Have an unlisted #team-offtopic channel. Things like that work in my experience if they're just available and not forced.
Re:People love working remotely by mgkimsal on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @03:28PM (#20750977)
and... if you start 2 weeks after the last yearly get together... you're on the outs for a long time.

nothing against yearly meetings, but would hope people have ways of getting together more often if the group decides its necessary.

Re:People love working remotely by eikenberry on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @01:50PM (#20759534)
You can have different forms of meet-ups as well. My current company has the yearly gathering, plus the employees who live locally have a monthly lunch. None of them are on my team, but it still makes for some nice work-oriented socializing.
Re:People love working remotely by shrimp_emoji on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @10:56AM (#20747670)
I've chatted online (in text) virtually my entire life, way more than I've actually talked, face-to-face or otherwise. My reading/writing comprehension's really developed as a result. Not only do people like me (even in my age range) seem relatively rare though, but it feels like talking IRL has some... weird clarity to it.

Maybe it's because the lower info bandwidth but higher emotional bandwidth (?) forces a kind of expedience you can't get otherwise. This seems especially useful in open-ended, "planning" conversations.

Maybe you can hold on to a lot of that with video/audio conferencing, but lag and tech issues are always salient. (But I'm technologically proficient and physically lazy, so I'd still rather deal with those than going somewhere.)

Re:People love working remotely by Buttons840 on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @01:07PM (#20749296)
How's the typing speed and habits of those opposed to text chat? It's not often asked about in interviews, but I've noticed some co-workers do not view typing as being fast and effortless like I do.
Re:People love working remotely by jonahbenton on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @06:47PM (#20753010)
A non-trivial number of very senior people simply cannot read or write. They can process information about other people very quickly in f2f interactions, but when things are written down they are at sea. Video is also significantly less useful for these people.

I have seen it in dozens, maybe hundreds, of execs I have interacted with over the years, including people I have worked very closely with.

Sometimes it is varieties of dyslexia, sometimes ADD. Could be any number of other "disorders."

It's not a preference/policy. It's just how they engage. Often it is best to recognize it, and engage with them on the terms that work best for them.

And of course this is not new. Illiterate leaders have been with us since there has been literacy.

Re:People love working remotely by biomcgary on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @03:48PM (#20760927)
As remote work increases (and capital starts flowing consistently to remote-oriented companies), I think we're going to see a shift in the personality types and skill sets of successful managers. Specifically, touchy-feely socializers are going to have a harder time because a) more documentation of previous communication makes backtracking more difficult and b) social manipulation is distinctly different when verbal vs text.
Re:People love working remotely by Consultant32452 on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @12:14PM (#20748633)
I get 100+ emails per day. I'm almost certainly not reading the multi day email chain unless someone IMs me to ask for my input on it.
Re:People love working remotely by Buttons840 on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @12:51PM (#20749103)
Anyone ever had a company forum? Like Discourse or similar? That seems like a better format. Chat + forum.
Re:People love working remotely by jimcsharp on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @03:08PM (#20750761)
I think that's what Slack is supposed to be - especially with Threads. So far it's just IRC with gifs where I work.
Re:People love working remotely by hombre_fatal on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @04:13PM (#20751550)
Slack has nothing in common with forums except that they named that feature "threads." It's only to pull a chat convo aside in a chat app.
Re:People love working remotely by filoleg on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @05:07PM (#20752146)
That's what email rules are for. If there is a long email chain and I am not directly @mentioned in the body of the email, it automatically gets filtered away into a separate folder and stays unread there, while my inbox stays clean and up to date.

If my participation is actually needed in the thread, I will be inevitably @mentioned by someone, and the email stays in my main inbox folder.

Re:People love working remotely by JoeAltmaier on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @04:12PM (#20751539)
Managers meet - that's what they do. They can be profoundly out of touch with what engineers do. Thus, stupid statements like that one.