News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:H-1B Visa Most Used for 'Software Engineer,' 'Software De... by whatshisface on Monday August 19, 2019 @10:55AM (#20738275)
>There is no evidence outside of my own conjecture to support such a thing

Every economist believes in supply and demand curves. If there are any H1Bs being awarded to replaceable programmers (as opposed to specialized programmers with no American counterparts, as was the intended use of the system), then wages are being depressed. It's practically a law of physics.

Re:H-1B Visa Most Used for 'Software Engineer,' 'Software De... by geebee on Monday August 19, 2019 @11:42AM (#20738740)
I think it's a little more complicated than that. A pool of 1000 workers won't necessarily earn less than a pool of 100 workers. With higher specialization, they may well earn far more.

However, this assumes that employment is fluid, and that people are allowed to choose a profession or trade that aligns with market signals and their own personal interests and preferences. In short, every citizen who considers becoming a developer int he valley is also free to become a plumber in Duluth or a lawyer in New York City. Or open a scented candle shop, or a surfboard shaping business.

The point of the H1B visa is to create a system where visa restrictions and sunk costs create a pool of workers who aren't allowed to make those choices, and are limited to a few fields where Silicon Valley CEOs have declared a "shortage".

And, astonishingly, many people talk about this shortage without discussing wages, work conditions, career stability, and the other options available to highly skilled people who can choose other professions (you know, those pesky free folk who just won't become developers in the valley at the rates tech CEOs have decided they should).

The US has a really grim history of creating non-free worker classes in order to undermine free labor markets. This is another installment of it, though the H1-B abuses, clearly documented and really bad, are nonetheless minor compared to some of these historical horrors.

Re:H-1B Visa Most Used for 'Software Engineer,' 'Software De... by thatfrenchguy on Monday August 19, 2019 @11:07AM (#20738390)
Except supply and demand for employment is not elastic at all, so it’s not really a fair comparaison.
Re:H-1B Visa Most Used for 'Software Engineer,' 'Software De... by whatshisface on Monday August 19, 2019 @11:16AM (#20738491)
Demand for programmers is nowhere more elastic than HackerNews, where startups are being created to hire programmers. Supply is also pretty elastic on HackerNews, where many people are learning to code for the first time. The front page is usually full of examples of elasticity in both supply and demand.
Re:H-1B Visa Most Used for 'Software Engineer,' 'Software De... by noego on Monday August 19, 2019 @11:00AM (#20738329)
Economists also believe in the lump of labor fallacy, which your comment perfectly exemplifies

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy

Re:H-1B Visa Most Used for 'Software Engineer,' 'Software De... by whatshisface on Monday August 19, 2019 @11:04AM (#20738370)
The lump of labor fallacy is equivalent to believing in inelastic demand. However the supply and demand model doesn't depend on inflexibility: its basic highschool formulation involves supply that increases with price and demand that decreases with price. So, no, I don't think the suppply and demand model requires a fixed demand.
Re:H-1B Visa Most Used for 'Software Engineer,' 'Software De... by noego on Monday August 19, 2019 @12:41PM (#20739298)
The lump-of-labor fallacy arises when people don't realize that increases in the labor, also cause a increase in labor demand. Hence why wages have been rising constantly, and unemployment being steady, despite America's population growing exponentially in the past 300 years.
Re:H-1B Visa Most Used for 'Software Engineer,' 'Software De... by rollingdeep on Monday August 19, 2019 @02:02PM (#20740103)
Please don’t post misinformation. Exponential growth (population or otherwise) is a tired economic trope. The frontier days are over, please update your views to modern times like the past 70 years or so where growth is much more limited than the frontier days and is fairly linear—probably due to the fact that the economy (especially the USA) is a mature system and you can’t so easily apply unnuanced econ101 generalizations (from the previous century) about the lump of labour fallacy to today’s system.

You incorrectly imply that tech jobs will expand organically in a frontier-like or exponential fashion as happened in the past. That doesn’t actually happen in the tech sector. Tech companies seek to exclude alternative hire options from other STEM fields (engineering, science, etc.) because those alternatives would not be as cost efficient. Instead the tech jobs grow linearly (like most mature industries and systems) and only by the annual cap on visas being granted.

How you can tell that there is no absolute shortage of tech labor is that the number tech jobs never grows beyond the visa cap. If there were a shortage, companies would find more creative ways to exceed the cap limits like the above mentioned alternatives or creating training factories to increase the supply to meet organic needs/demand.

So while this mature system is not necessarily a fixed lump of labour, the mature constraints that apply seem to limit any organic growth to the current regime we find ourselves in. That is to say that companies constrain the tech labour system to their very skewed preferences instead of organic growth, and as a result the economic pie is growing less and less, and there is more and more competition over slice distribution. Incumbents are absolutely in direct competition with foreign labour and there is less overall growth to share equitably. Again, not a fixed lump of labour, but increasingly competitive to the point of very limited growth from within.

Re:H-1B Visa Most Used for 'Software Engineer,' 'Software De... by bryanlarsen on Monday August 19, 2019 @12:27PM (#20739180)
Supply and demand for labour is spectacularly difficult to model accurately.