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Re:Media Can’t Stop Presenting Horrifying Stories as ‘Uplift... by dmm on Sunday August 18, 2019 @12:36PM (#20731235)
There's a large political organization that intentionally sabotages govt effectiveness because they feel that is the best way to eliminate govt.

I'm not saying that is the cause of all govt failure in the US bit it's a significant one.

Re:Media Can’t Stop Presenting Horrifying Stories as ‘Uplift... by rayiner on Sunday August 18, 2019 @12:46PM (#20731296)
Having lived Chicago, Philadelphia, New York, Baltimore, and DC, where you have to search far and wide to find a republican, but where public services still suck (despite high taxes), I think the causation runs in the other direction. I think if you took a bunch of Danes and made them live in Baltimore for a few decades, they’d vote down any attempt at expanding government services too.
Re:Media Can’t Stop Presenting Horrifying Stories as ‘Uplift... by perl4ever on Sunday August 18, 2019 @11:34PM (#20734678)
I don't think you can say that Democrats in big cities cause big city problems unless you can point to some big cities that are mostly Republican and do better. It's my impression that if you map political affiliation at a granular level, the US has a consistent pattern everywhere of blue neuron-like clusters everywhere people live, in a sea of much less populated red. I don't think that pattern varies substantially in any region of the country, and the rhetoric about states and other subdivisions being "red" or "blue" obscures the reality.

When A and B are correlated, it's not necessarily the case that A -> B or B -> A, it may be that C -> (A and B).

Also see: https://xkcd.com/1138/

Re:Media Can’t Stop Presenting Horrifying Stories as ‘Uplift... by rayiner on Monday August 19, 2019 @12:39AM (#20734945)
Note the assertion that I was responding to, which is the idea that government is ineffective because Republicans sabotage it. To refute that assertion, I pointed out that government services in heavily blue cities in heavily blue states are still bad. That doesn’t mean that Democrats cause those problems, only that those problems exist even where there are few republicans to “sabotage” government.

There are urban areas controlled by Republicans, and they don’t do public services any better—they just don’t do public services. E.g. Phoenix.

Re:Media Can’t Stop Presenting Horrifying Stories as ‘Uplift... by perl4ever on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @10:25PM (#20754093)
I just looked up information on Phoenix, and it seems that it more or less corresponds to the 7th and 9th congressional districts, which seem to have had Democratic congresspeople since they were created, and also voted for Democratic presidential candidates in every election.
Re:Media Can’t Stop Presenting Horrifying Stories as ‘Uplift... by perl4ever on Monday August 19, 2019 @05:52PM (#20742165)
Are you assuming the state and federal governments don't have any impact on cities?
Re:Media Can’t Stop Presenting Horrifying Stories as ‘Uplift... by AstralStorm on Monday August 19, 2019 @09:45AM (#20737669)
That's because both of the parties are pro-business, against regulation and getting more similar on the key economics all the time.

USA hasn't had a left wing party since 60s or so.

Re:Media Can’t Stop Presenting Horrifying Stories as ‘Uplift... by rayiner on Monday August 19, 2019 @03:49PM (#20741150)
What does being “pro business” or “against regulation” have to do with the quality of public services? These cities and states spend a ton of money on public services—they just do a bad job running them.

Besides, Western European countries manage to have good public services even though they:

1) Are more “pro business” in key respects, especially from the point of view of taxation. Western European countries generally have lower reliance on corporate taxation than the US, and much higher reliance on consumption taxes (VAT). They also rely much more heavily on payroll taxes paid for by middle class individuals than on corporate taxes.

2) Are more deregulatory in key respects. There is an E.U.-wide directive that requires rail to be deregulated and opened up to competition. If we had something similar here, instead of having government departments operate commuter rail service in say Virginia, the state would have to separate ownership of the tracks and allow for-profit companies to bid to actually operate the service. In DC, the WMATA Union is fighting tooth and nail to prevent one part of one line from being operated under contract to a private company. By contrast, the entire Stockholm subway is operated by private companies (one being MRT, the Hong Kong rail operator).

In another example, Germany, France, Spain, Italy, and Sweden have school vouchers: https://www.edchoice.org/school_choice_faqs/how-does-school-...

> Scholar Charles Glenn noted that “governments in most Western democracies provide partial or full funding for nongovernment schools chosen by parents; the United States (apart from a few scattered and small-scale programs) is the great exception, along with Greece.”2 Or as Diane Ravitch pointed out in a 2001 article, “The proportion of students in government-funded private schools is sizable in countries such as Australia (25 percent), Belgium (58 percent), Denmark (11 percent), France (16.8 percent), South Korea (21 percent), the Netherlands (76 percent), Spain (24 percent), and the United Kingdom (30 percent).”

“Businesses” are a total red herring. Those nice public services in Europe aren’t paid for by “businesses” they’re paid for by taxes on the middle class. The middle class agrees to pay those extra taxes, because the government has proven it can run the public services effectively. Democrats would love to raise taxes and expand public services. (See, e.g., the Democratic primary.) They just can’t convince voters that voters would get their money’s worth.

Likewise, the idea that public services in US cities is bad because Democrats aren’t far left enough is totally absurd when in Germany you can ride around on a partially-privatized passenger rail system and send your kid to a private school 85% subsidized by the government.

Re:Media Can’t Stop Presenting Horrifying Stories as ‘Uplift... by perl4ever on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @10:30PM (#20754114)
"There is an E.U.-wide directive that requires rail to be deregulated and opened up to competition. If we had something similar here, instead of having government departments operate commuter rail service in say Virginia"

My impression is that in the US, the existing system basically gives priority to freight, and that passenger rail is poor because of that.

I have been on an Amtrak train that had to wait and wait for a (private) freight train, and of course people blame Amtrak and the government for the delay which is a little unfair.

But in the big picture, I think it's not intuitively obvious that prioritizing freight in the US is the wrong decision for the country. I mean, you could argue it, but maybe freight is the best use of rail given the overall lack of density of the country.

Re:Media Can’t Stop Presenting Horrifying Stories as ‘Uplift... by gok on Sunday August 18, 2019 @04:04PM (#20732487)
That's not really fair. American cities have "high taxes" in the sense that they are higher than in non-cities, but that's really not that much money. New York City raises something like $55 billion / year, but that's only around 4% of its GMP. New Yorkers are still taxed overall rather low for very big city in a very rich country.

As for public services sucking...it's easy to point to obvious failings but hard to compare public service suckiness overall. Americans are generally unhappy with their public services but so are most Europeans.

Re:Media Can’t Stop Presenting Horrifying Stories as ‘Uplift... by whenanother on Sunday August 18, 2019 @01:20PM (#20731510)
this is so naive. wealth has no borders and they are in every municipality in the us.
Re:Media Can’t Stop Presenting Horrifying Stories as ‘Uplift... by leetcrew on Sunday August 18, 2019 @03:32PM (#20732294)
dunno about the rest of the cities, but I tried to find some data on wealthy republicans in baltimore. only about 8% of all the people in baltimore are registered republicans. pew forum doesn't even break down republicans by income, presumably because there are so few. [0]

it's true that wealthy people dominate politics in pretty much every municipality in the US, but at least in baltimore the shot callers are likely all dems.

[0] https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/metro-are...

Re:Media Can’t Stop Presenting Horrifying Stories as ‘Uplift... by rayiner on Sunday August 18, 2019 @02:17PM (#20731860)
The wealthy in all those cities are overwhelmingly Democrats.
Re:Media Can’t Stop Presenting Horrifying Stories as ‘Uplift... by perl4ever on Sunday August 18, 2019 @11:37PM (#20734692)
Well, this is a very vague and ambiguous statement, and doesn't have a citation.

By "wealthy", you could mean billionaires, you could mean people making a couple million a year, or you could mean people making $300K a year.

I believe the latter are a large part of what make large cities wealthy and underpin the tax base, and I'm not so sure they are mostly Democrats.

Re:Media Can’t Stop Presenting Horrifying Stories as ‘Uplift... by CryptoPunk on Sunday August 18, 2019 @01:37PM (#20731614)
Sounds like you're inventing anti-Republican conspiracy theories to explain the failure of states and cities that have been totally dominated by the Democratic Party for 50 years.

In doing so you're preventing the Democratic Party from being held accountable, so that they may be pressured to fix the serious problems that exist with their ideology and political structure, which ensures that more people are drawn to the Republican party, simply as the less unpalatable one of the two.

The people who are going to agree with your tenuous explanations for the failure of Democratic-run cities were always going to vote Democrat anyway. It's those people who are on the fence who are not in your political bubble who you are going to push away by turning the Democratic party into one that does not accept criticism and does not operate in the realm of evidence and reality.

Re:Media Can’t Stop Presenting Horrifying Stories as ‘Uplift... by digitaltrees on Sunday August 18, 2019 @04:03PM (#20732473)
Cities can’t overcome national policy that is directed at broadly destroying social safety net programs, disenfranchising large percentages of the population, driving income and asset concentration, eliminating collective bargaining and facilitating automation and international supply chains all of which rob local communities of the resources and opportunities necessary to rebound.

A mayor has no chance of fixing the city when the tax base is decimated because of these national policies.

For example, consider the housing and mortgage policies over the last 50 years where redlining literally systematically destroyed the real estate and tax base of the very cities you cite as examples of the democratic parties failure to effectively manage city services. When no one can get a mortgage to buy property in a city, prices drop, which means the tax base erodes, which means social services are reduced, which means property values drop further; very nasty negative cycle. Then add a national highway bill that gives preference to suburbs and exurbs and you should clearly see that the cause is not local party mismanagement but broad national policies.

Re:Media Can’t Stop Presenting Horrifying Stories as ‘Uplift... by CryptoPunk on Sunday August 18, 2019 @05:35PM (#20733072)
>>Cities can’t overcome national policy that is directed at broadly destroying social safety net programs,

1. Some of these cities spend huge amounts of money per capita on public services. You need to actually look at the statistics and not just make assumptions that fit your preconceived ideological narrative.

2. Social welfare spending as a percentage of GDP has massively grown since the 1950s, which totally contradicts this idea that the social safety net has been dismantled. Before 1967 there wasn't even a Medicare in the US.

3. The most dysfunctional major cities in the US have been strongholds of the Democratic Party for decades. If the problems in Democrat-run cities are attributable to federal policy then Republican-run City should be doing just as poorly but they're not.

For all these reasons, I repeat my charge you're inventing conspiracy theories to blame Republicans instead of accepting facts that condemn the Democratic Party

Re:Media Can’t Stop Presenting Horrifying Stories as ‘Uplift... by digitaltrees on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @04:46PM (#20751927)
1. You need to cite statistics instead of just saying they exist and systematically disprove my argument. In fact I think cities spend a lot per capita exactly for the reason I describe. Federal policies that hollow out city centers and job opportunity means more people will need services and per capita spending will increase as those that can afford to relocate (and don’t need services leave). Those that stay by definition need more services; this distorts the per capita spending and decouples it from causation. You have to look at all government policy for accurate causation not just local government policy.

2. Yes, some government social safety net programs are new. But they weren’t designed to fix or replace local services or bring the cost of those services down. In fact since they were enacted elderly and child poverty is drastically lower. Generally very successful result as what they were intended to address. But other many programs like food stamps, Medicaid, housing benefits have been drastically cut. Those that haven’t have been tied to work requirements that end up pushing people out of the system. The US has among the lowest social mobility among peer nations because the safety net isn’t there when people need it. So my point stands.

3. I did not refer to any conspiracy theory. - Republicans policies have been clear and public. Reagan vilified welfare queens and said government was the problem. - The rhetoric about “starve the beast” is as out in the open as you could ever have. - The recent tax bill that explicitly targeted democratic states is easy to find. - The history of the damage from highways cutting through minority neighborhoods and destroying their business districts is as clear and documented as anything in social science as is the racist motive and attitude of the leadership that pushed the actual design. - Redline mortgages to prevent lending in minority communities was explicitly in the contract and you can read examples. You can find actual maps that were used to approve or reject loan origination based on race.

- There is a Supreme Court case dealing with property covenants that made it impossible to sell property to non-white buyers. Many suburbs were +90% white until these provisions were ruled unconstitutional. -Should I go on? You’re telling me Baltimore should be able to single handedly fight these trends?

By all means hold the Democratic Party accountable. But first be accurate and complete in was is causing the problem. I never even said these were republican policies. I merely said federal vs local.

However, In reality only the Republican Party is on record saying they want to literally destroy the government because it shouldn’t exist in its present form. Only the Republican Party is on record supporting policies that target “takers” and target people based on race.

I don’t have a preconceived ideological narrative. I have an informed, descriptive theory of political economy based on years of fact gathering, research, and predictive testing. I was a libertarian when I started, now I am here.

Re:Media Can’t Stop Presenting Horrifying Stories as ‘Uplift... by rayiner on Sunday August 18, 2019 @04:33PM (#20732628)
Sure, cities can’t make up for federal labor laws. But they should be able to run basic municipal services, like schools, transit, etc., that in other countries are overwhelmingly paid for by municipal and local governments.

Median household income in Baltimore is about double that of Spain or Italy. Median household of African American households in Baltimore, though much less than that of white households in the city, is still about as much as Spain or Italy. There is an ample tax base there to support good municipal services if the government was capable of doing so efficiently.

Re:Media Can’t Stop Presenting Horrifying Stories as ‘Uplift... by digitaltrees on Monday August 19, 2019 @06:51PM (#20742502)
Economics usually work in ratios not absolute dollars. Comparing services in Spain and Baltimore can only go so far as the cost of those service have drastically different inputs and those inputs may comprise very different ratios making the unit economics worse in what otherwise appears to be a wealthier area.
Re:Media Can’t Stop Presenting Horrifying Stories as ‘Uplift... by rayiner on Sunday August 18, 2019 @06:40PM (#20733417)
(I should clarify—I’m not trying to diminish the magnitude of the problem that black households have half the income of white households in Baltimore. That’s a separate issue from whether Baltimore’s tax base is sufficient to support decent public services—somehow, Spain and Italy make due with less.)
Re:Media Can’t Stop Presenting Horrifying Stories as ‘Uplift... by ijiiijji1 on Sunday August 18, 2019 @04:47PM (#20732713)
Gore Vidal said the Property party has two wings, D and R.