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Re:The most frequent 777 characters give 90% coverage of Kan... by WnZ39p0Dgydaz1 on Saturday August 17, 2019 @01:55AM (#20722388)
Afterthought: Kawaii (cute) is actually 可愛い, also containing "可", which literally may mean something like "a thing that can be easily loved", or simpler, cute. But you wouldn't be able to guess that if you just know the Kanji.
Re:The most frequent 777 characters give 90% coverage of Kan... by mytailorisrich on Saturday August 17, 2019 @02:40AM (#20722539)
I don't know for Japanese as meaning sometimes shifts from Chinese, but in Chinese the standard definition of 可 is "can, may, be able to".

You obviously learn it by itself but as Chinese words are mostly a combination of 2 characters, you immediately also have to learn e.g. 可以 (can, may, be able to), 可能 (maybe), 可爱 (cute) etc.

So someone who's learning characters in order to get 90% coverage (or whatever) would not simply learn characters but learn actual words. Learning characters in isolation would not be that helpful, indeed.

When you don't know a word (i.e. a combination) but you know the individual characters it is much easier to learn the new word either by guessing or checking.

In context, the meaning of 可爱 would be fairly straightforward to guess, for example. Even in English 'lovable' is a synonym of 'cute'.

Re:The most frequent 777 characters give 90% coverage of Kan... by fenomas on Saturday August 17, 2019 @07:56AM (#20723544)
> the meaning of 可爱 would be fairly straightforward to guess

To be honest this whole thread about 可愛い is more or less bonkers, because it's an ateji. The word's meaning doesn't derive from the characters, the characters got arbitrarily attached to an existing word because they were similar in sound and meaning.

As such, the whole thing is about as meaningful as talking about how easy it is to guess that 珈琲 means "coffee"...

Re:The most frequent 777 characters give 90% coverage of Kan... by mytailorisrich on Saturday August 17, 2019 @08:38AM (#20723717)
I must say I don't know much about ateji in Japanese.

In this case, though it does seem that the characters where chosen at least partly because of their actual meaning.

It seems that it is both an ateji and a jukujikun [1] because the word does not come from the characters but the characters do have the correct meaning.

[1]https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%8F%AF%E6%84%9B%E3%81%84#J...

Re:The most frequent 777 characters give 90% coverage of Kan... by irq11 on Saturday August 17, 2019 @11:31AM (#20724517)
The characters of 可愛い do not have the “correct” meaning. Just like in Chinese, 可 means “can”, or “possible”, and 可愛い is a weird exception. (It’s also nearly always written in hiragana.)

Nearly every word involving the kanji 可 in Japanese has something to do with permission: impossible (不可能), possible (可能), permission (許可), approval (可決), etc.

That said, the kanji-centric view of the world is ineffective, and one primarily adopted by beginner learners who have not spent any significant amount of time studying words in Japanese. It is always better to just learn words.

Re:The most frequent 777 characters give 90% coverage of Kan... by fenomas on Saturday August 17, 2019 @10:00AM (#20724071)
> the characters where chosen at least partly because of their actual meaning

Sure, didn't I say they were in my post?

The point was, in a discussion of how well X predicts Y, it's not very useful to examine a test case where Y came first and X was chosen post-hoc to match it.

Re:The most frequent 777 characters give 90% coverage of Kan... by mytailorisrich on Saturday August 17, 2019 @10:25AM (#20724181)
> Sure, didn't I say they were in my post?

No, quite the opposite actually ;)

Re:The most frequent 777 characters give 90% coverage of Kan... by fenomas on Saturday August 17, 2019 @10:31AM (#20724203)
> the characters got arbitrarily attached to an existing word because they were similar in sound and meaning
Re:The most frequent 777 characters give 90% coverage of Kan... by mytailorisrich on Saturday August 17, 2019 @10:51AM (#20724307)
It does not seem arbitrary in this case because the meaning does match.

I do take your point that using that word in the discussion above, which is about Japanese was not the best example. On the other hand, it is a good example in chinese.

Re:The most frequent 777 characters give 90% coverage of Kan... by fenomas on Saturday August 17, 2019 @11:41PM (#20728102)
(A) In Japanese the meanings don't match that closely. The word didn't originally mean cute, but rather pathetic or pitiable, and evolved over time. More info: http://gogen-allguide.com/ka/kawaii.html

(B) By arbitrary here I mean that there is no linguistic connection. "Arbitrarily chosen because they are similar" => "chosen for no reason other than their similarity".

Re:The most frequent 777 characters give 90% coverage of Kan... by solidsnack9000 on Monday August 19, 2019 @07:52PM (#20742752)
If the characters were chosen because they fit the meaning, what does that change?
Re:The most frequent 777 characters give 90% coverage of Kan... by fenomas on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @12:01AM (#20743726)
The thread was about how words' characters and meanings relate, and with ateji that relation is highly atypical, is the basic point.
Re:The most frequent 777 characters give 90% coverage of Kan... by xxxpupugo on Saturday August 17, 2019 @05:47AM (#20723103)
Actually, no. 可 is like 'the be able to' prefix in Japanese/Chinese, so 可愛 is can be seen as a compound word because of that, literally means 'is able to be loved'

In Chinese, it can be further compounded into many common phrases:

可悲(pathetic, 可+'sad')

可气(annoying/irritating, 可+'anger')

可怜(pitiful, 可+'pity')

可恨(resentful, 可+'hate')

What would be a more suitable example would be 可(ke)乐(le) in my opinion, in which case it means Coke in Chinese, it is a transliteration.

Re:The most frequent 777 characters give 90% coverage of Kan... by namelosw on Saturday August 17, 2019 @07:09AM (#20723365)
Yes, Most of the time 可 means 'able' in '__able'.

But it could also be 'a thing that can be easily loved'. Rr simply, 'pleasing'. For example, 可口 means tasty. So, 可爱 could be understood in both ways actually.

Re:The most frequent 777 characters give 90% coverage of Kan... by Freak_NL on Saturday August 17, 2019 @02:14AM (#20722467)
Perhaps not the best example. Knowing that 可 is usually read 'ka' in compound words, and that 愛 is read as 'ai', you get to 'ka-ai-i', at which point the meaning of 愛 (love) will likely push you to かわいい (kawaii).
Re:The most frequent 777 characters give 90% coverage of Kan... by WnZ39p0Dgydaz1 on Saturday August 17, 2019 @02:17AM (#20722473)
Of course, but you are assuming that you already know the meaning of "kawaii". My point is that if you don't know the word, you can't infer the meaning from the Kanji, except in very simple cases. That's why memorizing Kanji alone really isn't as helpful. Knowing 90% of Kanji meaning and reading doesn't help you much in understanding compounds/words.
Re:The most frequent 777 characters give 90% coverage of Kan... by Freak_NL on Saturday August 17, 2019 @02:21AM (#20722488)
> but you are assuming that you already know the meaning of "kawaii".

Have you ever been around non-native students of Japanese? This is the one word that is pretty much guaranteed to be known by all with an interest in anything remotely Japanese.

Your point is valid, but kawaii is perhaps not the right example.

Re:The most frequent 777 characters give 90% coverage of Kan... by bsder on Saturday August 17, 2019 @04:06AM (#20722834)
Actually, I suspect it's a pretty decent example.

Most non-native students of Japanese will almost always encounter that word in hiragana, katakana, or even Romaji--encountering that as a kanji is actually remarkably rare.

The fact that the kanji for kawaii is an ateji makes it one of those odd ducks.

Re:The most frequent 777 characters give 90% coverage of Kan... by thaumasiotes on Saturday August 17, 2019 @07:29AM (#20723429)
> Most non-native students of Japanese will almost always encounter that word in hiragana, katakana, or even Romaji--encountering that as a kanji is actually remarkably rare.

Interestingly, it's very common for students of Chinese. The word 可爱 (kě'ài, "cute") is dirt-common, but it isn't native to Chinese -- it originates as a loan from Japanese.

This isn't clear to the Chinese themselves, who use 卡哇伊 (kǎwāyī) if they want to refer to the Japanese word.

There's another modern word for cute, 萌 méng, which is also a loan from Japanese, though I think popular awareness of it as a weird loanword is higher, since its literal meaning ("sprout") is so far removed from the concept "cute".

Re:The most frequent 777 characters give 90% coverage of Kan... by oska on Saturday August 17, 2019 @03:21AM (#20722693)
The counterpoint is that if you are fluent in spoken Japanese you can get by with a fairly minimal number of kanji (and complete understanding of the kana as well, obviously).

Which is the trend with native Japanese people too.