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Re:Black Hat Talk About ‘Time AI’ Causes Uproar, Is Deleted ... by gus_massa on Sunday August 11, 2019 @03:35AM (#20666897)
The paper is quite straightforward and use only math from the first or second year of the university. If you understand the word "module" and have 15 minutes to loose, give it a try.

Ignoring the reference to unrelated results about prime numbers, the main idea is that to check if a number is prime:

1) First check the remainder modulo 10, modulo 9 and modulo 24. This part is correct, but it's suspicious that they waste a few pages to prove it. Anyone with a minimal background will agree with this part explained in a line.

2) They make a multiplication table "Q-grid" of the number that are not multiple of 2 nor 3. The idea is that after discarding the numbers with the bad remainder module 24, the rest of the numbers are not multiple of 2 nor 3. Again, it's suspicious that they give a long explanation and the use of invented names like "Quasi-primes"

3) To test if N is prime, they try to find in this table build looking first at the numbers nearby the x~=sqrt(N) and y~=sqrt(N) so x * y ~= N. It's not clear how they lookup in the table.

Being very optimistic, this is essentially like searching for a divisor of N up to sqrt(N). [I'm not sure that their implementation is not worse.] This search up to sqrt(N) is one of the first trick you learn to test primality. The advantage of their method is that they reduce the search space modulo 24 and they get the result in sqrt(N)/3 steps. [I'm not sure that their implementation is not worse.] This is slightly better than using only the odd numbers to get the result in sqrt(N)/2 steps.

For big enough numbers to be used in cryptography, this sqrt(N) or sqrt(N)/2 or sqrt(N)/3 is complete rubbish compared to any modern serious method, it's not even funny, I understand the uproar.

Some quotes:

> And because when we search for the prime factors of some semiprime number we need to remove the non-prime numbers from both axes of the Q-grid, like 25, 35, 49 etc., the problem will automatically reduce to simply locating the number in the Q-grid, with its horizontal and vertical projections on both axes being its prime factors.

I hope they are not trying to build the whole Q-grid. It uses more memory than a simple search. Also if they are keeping only the prime numbers, why all the discussion of using the remainder module 24. All big prime numbers have the correct remainder module 24.

> In fact, these two numbers, 2 and 3, contradict many of the primes properties such that some mathematicians consider them as sub-prime integers.

I never hear that. Bad math joke: Did you notice that 2 is an odd prime number?

Re:Black Hat Talk About ‘Time AI’ Causes Uproar, Is Deleted ... by codeflo on Sunday August 11, 2019 @06:13AM (#20667410)
Thanks for the summary.

> First check the remainder modulo 10, modulo 9 and modulo 24.

This makes zero sense already. First, 9=3 x 3, so checking for 3 is sufficient. (Checking for 9 might be easier in decimal, but why the hell would you do cryptography in decimal?) Then there’s the 24=2 x 2 x 2 x 3. Again, why not just use 6, but even worse, there’s no new factor here that’s not already covered by 10 and 9.

(And as you mentioned, even if this works, much better primality Tests are readily available.)

(Off-topic: Is there a good way to indicate multiplication on HN? I can’t figure out how to escape asterisks, and Unicode symbols seem to be simply filtered out, which is a bit crazy in 2019.)

Re:Black Hat Talk About ‘Time AI’ Causes Uproar, Is Deleted ... by gus_massa on Sunday August 11, 2019 @10:42AM (#20668375)
They are using the "rule of nines" (i.e. the sum of the digits, perhaps iterated). It is very handy when you have the decimal representation of the number to operate on paper, but it's not as handy when you have the numbers in the computer. I "translated" that to "modulo 9" because it is equivalent and is easier to understand for not native English speakers. [Hi from Argentina!]

Also, they are using the last digit of the number, that I translated to "modulo 10".

Another reason for the translation is that the mathematical structure is more clear in "modulo 10, modulo 9 and modulo 24" than in the version "last digit, nines rule and modulo 24".

In a computer is much more efficient to use modulo that transforming the number to a string and then operating with the digits, so I hope they have an efficient implementation but it is not clear from the pdf.

Re:Black Hat Talk About ‘Time AI’ Causes Uproar, Is Deleted ... by qtplatypus on Sunday August 11, 2019 @07:16PM (#20671159)
It looks like a pen and paper algorithm adapted to computing. Though even then it sucks. Mod 2, mod 5, mod 3 would eliminate more non primes and require less steps in pen and paper.
Re:Black Hat Talk About ‘Time AI’ Causes Uproar, Is Deleted ... by YeGoblynQueenne on Sunday August 11, 2019 @08:39AM (#20667904)
Try typing two asterisks with a space in between: *
Re:Black Hat Talk About ‘Time AI’ Causes Uproar, Is Deleted ... by thaumasiotes on Sunday August 11, 2019 @09:26AM (#20668076)
> Checking for 9 might be easier in decimal

It isn't. The test is the same in both cases.

Re:Black Hat Talk About ‘Time AI’ Causes Uproar, Is Deleted ... by rurban on Sunday August 11, 2019 @09:50AM (#20668162)
It is. The sum of decimals is much faster than the modulo.
Re:Black Hat Talk About ‘Time AI’ Causes Uproar, Is Deleted ... by thaumasiotes on Sunday August 11, 2019 @06:17PM (#20670900)
Huh? You need modulus either way. n is zero (mod 3) iff its digit sum is zero (mod 3), and it's zero (mod 9) iff its digit sum is zero (mod 9).
Re:Black Hat Talk About ‘Time AI’ Causes Uproar, Is Deleted ... by mkl on Sunday August 11, 2019 @05:26AM (#20667263)
It looks like all instances of "module" here should be "modulo", having been auto-incorrected or something.
Re:Black Hat Talk About ‘Time AI’ Causes Uproar, Is Deleted ... by gus_massa on Sunday August 11, 2019 @09:39AM (#20668126)
Ups. I'm from argentina, so blame the autotranslation table inside my brain. I hope it's not bad enough to make the idea unintelligible.
Re:Black Hat Talk About ‘Time AI’ Causes Uproar, Is Deleted ... by tialaramex on Sunday August 11, 2019 @10:01AM (#20668204)
It's fine. We're in a thread about people's "snake oil detectors" going off, and your use of module where the right word is modulo kept causing the needle on mine to deflect, but you'd say something reasonable right after.

The famous 19th century English poet Robert Browning was not a particularly worldly fellow and got it into his head that the word "twat" referred to a nun's headgear. Later he wrote a poem that needs a rhyme for bats in the context of religious folk arriving for prayer and he picked "twats", - then since he was an important English writer and this word was unfamiliar to them (or at least they had no citations for it) the editors of the Oxford English Dictionary asked him about it, and discovered his error. Oops. You're never going to make a mistake that'll be as famous as Browning's, so you're fine.

Re:Black Hat Talk About ‘Time AI’ Causes Uproar, Is Deleted ... by felipemnoa on Sunday August 11, 2019 @10:33AM (#20668333)
Since we are correcting stuff, it is: Oops

I also was thrown off by the word module. I said to myself, unless he is talking about modulo I have no idea what that is.

Re:Black Hat Talk About ‘Time AI’ Causes Uproar, Is Deleted ... by SAI_Peregrinus on Sunday August 11, 2019 @04:20PM (#20670222)
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Module.html

The Module Learning With Rounding (MLWR) and Module Learning With Errors (MLWE) problems are used for a couple of the round-two candidates in NIST's Post-Quantum cryptography contest.

Which makes it more confusing. Modules aren't first/second year university math.

Re:Black Hat Talk About ‘Time AI’ Causes Uproar, Is Deleted ... by bequestry on Sunday August 11, 2019 @04:30PM (#20670281)
>Some mathematicians consider...

Sheesh, citation needed. Doubt this paper would be allowed as a post on wikipedia.