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Re:Become a nurse or physicians assistant instead of a docto... by outlace on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @07:59PM (#20630846)
New resident physician in the U.S. here. I actually really enjoy my job now but absolutely hated medical school. Would I do it again? Probably not even though I’m happy now. Four years of misery during my twenties was not worth it. And the stress of $250,000+ of student loans is ever present. And unless you’re at the top of your class at every stage of training, you have little control over where you end up geographically which is really bad when you have relationships to maintain. Long distance for several years sucks a ton.

So I’d only recommend going to medical school if you’re a top student who can get scholarships (so you don’t have much debt) and so you have some control over where you go (because you’ll be competitive for most programs). But even so, I went to a top Med school which was my first choice and I still ended up hating it. You’ll never know what program/city you’ll like until you try it but once you start it’s very difficult to change Med schools or residency programs in general.

Re:Become a nurse or physicians assistant instead of a docto... by wallace_f on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @09:31PM (#20631277)
Once in med school, how Meritocratic vs Subjective or Political is the road to top student status?
Re:Become a nurse or physicians assistant instead of a docto... by outlace on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @10:16PM (#20631462)
The pre-clinical years (usually the first two years, but many schools are condensing this phase into 1 or 1.5 years) are very meritocratic in that your standing depends on mostly multiple choice tests. And then you take the first medical licensing exam called Step 1 which largely determines your competitiveness for residency programs. The clinical years where you are actually working in the hospital in various fields is less objective as you are judged based on the subjective feedback evaluations of the residents and attending physicians.

However, you are mostly rated on how much you know, how confident you are and your social skills. So if you did really well in the pre clinical years and are not socially inept then you’ll probably get good evaluations.

But it’s a marathon. It’s an unbelievable amount of information you have to memorize and in the beginning it’s hard to stay motivated when you can’t see it’s direct relevance.

So overall I’d say it’s fairly meritocratic. If you can memorize things well and are social then you’ll do well barring any exceptional circumstances.

Re:Become a nurse or physicians assistant instead of a docto... by gcatalfamo on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @02:23AM (#20632376)
How does a person with your background end up on HN? Honestly curious.
Re:Become a nurse or physicians assistant instead of a docto... by amedstudent1 on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @04:39AM (#20632924)
I’m not who you asked your question to but I’ll put my opinion here for anyone interested: This website seems to be the place to read to be up to date in the tech and science sphere, which is similar to what I imagine lots of younger doctors and medical students are interested in. Me personally I love tech and read most articles except for the hardcore programming ones. A lot of discussion regarding medical science discoveries make it to the front page daily and it’s interesting to see what logically minded highly intelligent people outside medicine make of it. You’d be surprised a lot of medical colleagues I interact with aren’t the most tech savvy people and aren’t used to rapid iteration like the software engineering folks. That and entrepreneurship isn’t big in clinical practicing medicine so it’s an interesting aspect of life I know little about.
Re:Become a nurse or physicians assistant instead of a docto... by outlace on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @10:45AM (#20635151)
I also happen to be a programmer, worked part time as a web programmer in college and continue to write code for research projects. I’m interested in applying machine learning to problems in healthcare, most recently.
Re:Become a nurse or physicians assistant instead of a docto... by tiniuclx on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @04:34AM (#20632909)
Anyone can read Hacker News, it's not some sort of exclusive club! As to why someone would, there's a lot of interesting non-technical articles posted here.

Or maybe they're also a tech enthusiast in their spare time!

Re:Become a nurse or physicians assistant instead of a docto... by gcatalfamo on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @04:48AM (#20632966)
That’s my point. I never said it was an exclusive club, I just implied it’s not that common to end up here unless you had specific interests.

It is nice to have a greater breadth of backgrounds. The overall quality of comments can only improve.

Re:Become a nurse or physicians assistant instead of a docto... by wallace_f on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @11:09PM (#20631693)
Unfortunately, I wonder if extreme bullying could preclude any opportunities if your abuser is a successful authority figure in medicine? That probably sounds crazy.

Edit: maybe someone that downvoted this could help me understand what is disagreeable about this comment?

Re:Become a nurse or physicians assistant instead of a docto... by Thiez on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @02:27AM (#20632394)
I didn't downvote but your questions give me a strong impression that you are fishing for an answer that will allow you to conclude that 'top student' status is not (significantly) influenced by relevant skills but by other factors. Perhaps your comments would have been received better had you been more open about your own opinion/suspicions from the start. In their current form they feel like leading questions.
Re:Become a nurse or physicians assistant instead of a docto... by wallace_f on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @04:50AM (#20632971)
Ah that would an incorrect assumption. My question was genuine.

Edit: it is hard-enough as is for people who deal with abuse to openly talk about it. It would be good to give people the benefit of the doubt rather than accuse them of doing something wrong. Reality is not like that though, and many people living with ill will or abuse are often seen as "must have done something" to be experiencing that.

Re:Become a nurse or physicians assistant instead of a docto... by Thiez on Thursday August 08, 2019 @04:49PM (#20648567)
> it is hard-enough as is for people who deal with abuse to openly talk about it. It would be good to give people the benefit of the doubt rather than accuse them of doing something wrong.

I'm not sure why you act as if I am attacking you. Like I said I wasn't the one to downvote you, and I only offered a possible explanation for that downvote in response to a question that you asked. I'm sorry you were abused at some point and that wasn't your fault. But it sounds like that was in the past. Yet you are immediately taking a victim role in this conversation, and also in your replies to others in this thread. If you feel like people are out to get you all the time then chances are you are letting your past experiences colour your perceptions too much.

Re:Become a nurse or physicians assistant instead of a docto... by amedstudent1 on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @04:45AM (#20632955)
Irrespective if this question has any ulterior motives the answer is yes, definitely. It goes both ways, if you upset someone important there goes your chances in that speciality of medicine. On the flip side if your buddies with the important guys they can basically secure you a spot on a coveted program for instance. Medicine and it’s specialities are competitive to get into and there’s obviously way more demand than supply. So authority figures can pick and chose whom they want and also bad word spreads rapidly and you can be effectively blacklisted for messing with the wrong person. I’ve seen it a lot in my very young medical career. There’s some parts where it’s more of a factor and other parts where it’s less. I find it a fascinating topic actually but it’s one of those things that varies depending on many factors a big one being location/country.
Re:Become a nurse or physicians assistant instead of a docto... by wallace_f on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @04:53AM (#20632984)
Thanks for you answer; but I caution you to consider not assuming, blaming or accusing victims of abuse to having brought it upon themselves. When you say I "messed with the wrong person," I would hope to be able ask you not to assume that. In my case I did not recall even having interacted with this person before it started.

By the way I hope you are wrong in your judgement here regarding opportunity, but I fear that you are right.

Re:Become a nurse or physicians assistant instead of a docto... by barry-cotter on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @02:27AM (#20632393)
There are no prestige occupations where authority figures can’t preclude opportunities. Academia, medicine, law, any large bureaucracy, in any one of them if you piss off the wrong person your career is over. There are bad fields for this and worse ones. You could work for Citibank, realise that your career was being deliberately destroyed by a superior and you might be able to move to a competitor and get over it. Same for the private sector more generally. But if you work in fields that are either directly government run or depend on government funding, like medicine or academia, if you realise someone with power has it in for you just leave. You’re not going to win.

The idea that extreme bullying is anything other than a normal feature of bureaucratic organisations with no competition is farcical. It’s like believing in fairness or the tooth fairy.

Re:Become a nurse or physicians assistant instead of a docto... by wallace_f on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @04:48AM (#20632965)
Ah, in this case I didn't interact with this person. I'm not sure what his obsession was with me. This started in our first year of university. It was not isolated to that person, they were just the most-aggressive.
Re:Become a nurse or physicians assistant instead of a docto... by vonseel on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @10:10PM (#20631437)
From my understanding (2 doctors immediate family and several others extended fam), it can be quite political. Desirable specialties are competitive, whether for lifestyle (dermatology, radiology, etc.) or prestige/interest (things like pediatric surgery). Once you get into a specialty, the work does not stop, as there are usually progressive tiers of training and additional programs. You might do first 4 years residency in Dallas, then receive your next placement in Chicago for 2-3 years. These would be great locations, for most, from what I gather. Most aren’t so lucky.

IIRC the surgery fellowship (8 years after graduating undergrad, 4 years after med school graduation) application process gives a list of 10 cities (hospitals) which the intern is interviewing and applying for. They are allowed to rank their top three cities from this list, but there is no guarantee. They will travel to all ten cities and interview at all the programs.

Medicine is great for someone who wants to be in training until they are mid 30s - and that’s assuming you go directly to med school from undergrad.

Re:Become a nurse or physicians assistant instead of a docto... by tmh79 on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @10:15PM (#20631458)
My wife recently graduated from a top med school. Her experience was that it was probably 80% "meritocratic" (long hours, grinding it out, being there when someone needs help) and 20% "political" (knowing the right people in the department, knowing what research projects will be good to join and what projects are dogs). To be the top student, you need to know the material well and be productive at research and be a good service provider (good manners, thoughtful, empathetic, etc). The good news is that departments generally give very good opportunities and mentorship to anyone student who shows an aptitude for grinding. Basically, to be in the top 1/5 of the class is all about getting in your reps, and the things that separate the members of the top 1/5 of the class is who they know, who knows them, and the impact and scope of the projects and procedures they were trusted with.
Re:Become a nurse or physicians assistant instead of a docto... by pmiller2 on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @08:45PM (#20631049)
I sort of understand why it’s difficult to switch residences, but why is it difficult to switch schools?
Re:Become a nurse or physicians assistant instead of a docto... by outlace on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @10:24PM (#20631512)
It’s difficult to switch residencies because each residency program has a fixed number of positions per training year which is largely funded by the government. And almost all positions are filled by the end of match so the only way you can switch is if someone leaves their position for some reason and they happen to be at the same training level as you.

Medical schools admit a variable number of students each year although they aim to have a specific number. It’s difficult to switch medical schools because Med school curricula are very different from program to program. And also there’s just no standard mechanism for switching, you’d just have to schmooze some of the higher up administrators. Med schools don’t really get any advantage by taking in transfers unless they had a mass exodus of students and needed the money. So there’s little incentive for administrators to even bother with transfers. In residency you want all your positions filled so you can keep the funding and have enough staffing so if a position opens you want to fill it ASAP.

Re:Become a nurse or physicians assistant instead of a docto... by SkyPuncher on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @11:42AM (#20635738)
My wife's school had 5k applicants for 108 spots. Schools can be ultra selective in who they accepts and are allergic to people they think won't graduate from their school.

Not finishing a degree at one school suggests you're more likely to not finish it at the next school.

Why would schools take that risk when they can choose from 4,999 other applicants instead.

Re:Become a nurse or physicians assistant instead of a docto... by tmh79 on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @10:19PM (#20631479)
very few transfer spots open, and the schools tend to have different curriculum programs (generally the same courses, but taught with varying focuses).