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Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by bart_spoon on Monday August 05, 2019 @08:12AM (#20613437)
On the contrary, its lazy to assume that gun control won't fix the issue, because it implicitly assumes the massive difference between the US and other nations in violent murders is due to some other, vague, unexplained societal malady that somehow is only a problem in the US and not in other first world countries. Occam's razor would assume that the unique extent to which firearms are readily available in the US probably has a major connection to the unique extent to which mass shootings and gun violence occurs. Even if you were to make the argument that the underlying issues, whatever those may be, would persist, it is absolutely progress to have mass murderers be forced to utilize something like a knife than head on down the street and pick up an automatic/semi-automatic weapon.
Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by throw0101a on Monday August 05, 2019 @08:35AM (#20613611)
A point David Frum makes in his latest column:

> There is one developed country—and only one—in which it is not only legal, but easy and convenient, to amass a private arsenal of mass slaughter. That country also happens to be the one—and the only one—regularly afflicted by mass slaughters perpetrated by aggrieved individuals.

> You would not think that this is a complicated problem to puzzle out. Yet even as the casualties from gunfire mount, Americans express befuddlement, and compete to devise ever more far-fetched answers.

* https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/08/guns-are-a...

A similar column from a few years ago:

> A village has been built in the deepest gully of a floodplain.

> At regular intervals, flash floods wipe away houses, killing all inside. Less dramatic—but more lethal—is the steady toll as individual villagers slip and drown in the marshes around them.

> After especially deadly events, the villagers solemnly discuss what they might do to protect themselves. Perhaps they might raise their homes on stilts? But a powerful faction among the villagers is always at hand to explain why these ideas won’t work. “No law can keep our village safe! The answer is that our people must learn to be better swimmers - and oh by the way, you said ‘stilts’ when the proper term is ‘piles,’ so why should anybody listen to you?”

* https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/10/the-rea...

Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by dragonwriter on Monday August 05, 2019 @10:39AM (#20614559)
> You would not think that this is a complicated problem to puzzle out.

Sure, “the unique access to guns is a significant cause of the unique problem” is an obvious conclusion. Others are plausible, however, the most obvious alternative being that the two are effects of a common cause rather than cause and effect: that is, that America is uniquely heavily populated by violent maniacs, which produces the access to guns as a political result (both of the maniacs seeking arms to commit violence and others seeking access in fear to the maniacs) and the mass slaughter as a more direct result.

In that case, cutting off access to the guns might not have as much result as one might hope.

Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by Mountain_Skies on Monday August 05, 2019 @10:10AM (#20614337)
Does the AUM cult in Japan not disprove most of his main argument? They didn't have easy access to guns but still found it relatively easy to commit mass murder. More recently it took little more than some gasoline to murder 33 animators in Kyoto. Guns are an easy method of mass murder but hardly exclusive. Is there any reason to believe these murderers wouldn't switch methods? The attacks in Japan show that it's still easy to commit mass murder without guns.
Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by zzzcpan on Monday August 05, 2019 @10:27AM (#20614465)
Organized mass killing efforts are unstoppable, but emotion driven ones are amplified by the lethality of easily available weapons and people's experience with them. Meaning that all this culture of having guns, playing with them, knowing how to use them is the reason mass shootings can happen. You can't shoot lots of people with a kitchen knife if you suddenly get passionate and emotional about killing people.
Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by CapricornNoble on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:18PM (#20617635)
Except Americans have ALWAYS had extensive access to firearms, but frequent massacres by emotional hotheads are a fairly recent problem. In the 1920s you could buy a fully automatic Thompson sub-machine gun via mail order. People weren't shooting up schools regularly, and the worst massacre in the 1920s was done with explosives. Access to weapons hasn't really changed, so what has changed about the American PEOPLE?
Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by zzzcpan on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:45PM (#20618032)
My guess is - it was naturally suppressed in the past since there was only top down, centralized, slow and spotty in reaching audiences mass media and recently internet freed it. Everyone with a smartphone became its own little mass media, able to easily find like minded people, supercharge hateful propaganda through feedback loops. Who is spreading that propaganda and why is another question though. Anyone from politicians, foreign, local state actors to gun manufacturers.
Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by toyg on Monday August 05, 2019 @10:26AM (#20614454)
AUM was 1 attack 24 years ago. If you sum that and KyoAni, you end up with something like 50 victims in 25 years.

Do you think these numbers are even remotely comparable to US ones, where there have been hundreds of incidents only this year?

Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by leereeves on Monday August 05, 2019 @09:54AM (#20614205)
America is not a violent country, it's about average, and far better than our neighbors to the south.

And when we make comparisons with Europe, we should remember that violence in Europe is rising, while violence in the US is declining.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/01/03/5-facts-abo...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-germany-c...

https://www.politico.eu/article/sweden-bombings-grenade-atta...

Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by jakelazaroff on Monday August 05, 2019 @10:21AM (#20614416)
If you compare the US to only developed countries, it is an extreme outlier with regard to violence, and that violence correlates strongly with the number of guns [1]. Gun violence in the US is rising, not declining [2].

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shoot...

[2] https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/13/health/gun-deaths-highest-40-...

Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by leereeves on Monday August 05, 2019 @10:32AM (#20614498)
By what logic do you exclude Central and South America from the discussion?
Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by throw0101a on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:45PM (#20617127)
The logic that they have different social conditions that place different incentives on people's behaviour. For example, Venezuela banned private gun ownership, but that is not the reason for firearm deaths falling. The reason for that is because of the economic meltdown is so bad that bullets are too expensive for even criminals:

* https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/venezuela-...

It is a control on the variables that can confound comparison so we have a more apples-to-applies situation.

Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by leereeves on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:46PM (#20618048)
Well now we're talking about what we should be talking about: social conditions. Why people angry enough to kill and end their own lives in America?

But social conditions in America and Europe are very different so it's not an apples-to-apples comparison if we keep talking about gun policy.

Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by throw0101a on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @08:07AM (#20633902)
> Why people angry enough to kill and end their own lives in America?

There people who are angry enough in other countries:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Toronto_shooting

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_van_attack

The thing is that with easy access to powerful weapons, it is easier to implement such impulses in the US compared to other industrialized countries.

The US is not some hell hole where people have nothing to lose: for the most part it is a nice place to live (though, as with any place, it has better and worse areas). I think a lot of these incidents could be curtailed with better social conditions.

However, having a lot of weapons easily available is like having a lot of dry brush in the country: all it takes is one person's spark for things to catch on fire. Furthering the analogy, it's not that other countries don't have people who can be lit off, it's just the surrounding environment has reduced (though not eliminated) the chances of a large conflagration.

Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by zzzcpan on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:53PM (#20618144)
This is an answer to every single tricky political problem. If people resort to something those in power don't like - then they didn't provide good enough conditions for people to be happy and not do that.
Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by leereeves on Monday August 05, 2019 @04:15PM (#20618413)
I don't agree, but if you're right and it's "an answer to every single tricky political problem" the nation should discuss it immediately.
Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by throw0101a on Monday August 05, 2019 @10:14AM (#20614368)
> America is not a violent country,

The general crime rate in the US is not too different from the crime rate in most other developed countries; see point seven:

* https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/2/16399418/u...

However there's a lot more violent crime; see point one (ibid).

> it's about average, and far better than our neighbors to the south.

And yet as someone who lives in Canada, your neighbour to the north, we have a lot less gun crime. The difference is that we have good social services and decent filters on gun ownership. I don't know all the nitty-gritty details, but it seems that Canada's laws are roughly in line with what Massachusetts has:

* https://www.vox.com/2018/11/13/17658028/massachusetts-gun-co...

There will always probably be mass shootings:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Toronto_shooting

But I think adding some filters or speed bumps to ownership (and especially CCW) will weed out the hot heads and incompetents that cause so much low-level carnage:

* https://twitter.com/Well_Regulated_/status/11582078708082647...

* https://twitter.com/Well_Regulated_/status/11575509903437127...

* https://twitter.com/well_regulated_

Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by leereeves on Monday August 05, 2019 @10:24AM (#20614446)
Both you and Vox are trying to limit the discussion to gun crime, as if knife crime or acid attacks or bombings or mass vehicular homicides don't matter. That's misleading and borderline dishonest. It's the violence that matters, not the weapon.
Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by throw0101a on Monday August 05, 2019 @02:56PM (#20617322)
In December 2012, a crazed man entered an elementary school and attacked several staff members and students. He used a kitchen knife and while there were 24 injuries, there were zero deaths:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chenpeng_Village_Primary_Schoo...

A little while later, another crazed man entered a second elementary school and also attacked staff and students. He used an XM15 and Glock 20SF; there were 2 injuries and 28 deaths:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_s...

> It's the violence that matters, not the weapon.

I'm guessing you have never read Marshal McLuhan. The tools (communication or otherwise) that humans have available shape society and our perception of the world. There are daily examples (both negligent and purposeful) of people acting in a way that they probably would not have if they only had knives or just their fists:

* https://twitter.com/well_regulated_

The effects of different tools are... different. The "Garlic shooter" was able to kill 3 people and injure many more before he was taken out in under 60 seconds:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilroy_Garlic_Festival_shootin...

That kind of carnage is difficult to achieve with a baseball bat or a knife.

Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by eropple on Monday August 05, 2019 @10:28AM (#20614466)
And the effort required to kill a number of people with a gun is significantly less--like, to the point where the "but but what about that?" verges on ludicrous--than knife crime or acid attacks. Gun violence requires less specialized knowledge and provides fewer opportunities to catch a criminal before their plan goes off than bombings. And vehicles have overwhelmingly more legitimate use than guns that present a meaningful and socially valid argument against their restriction where guns have no such value.

Which is why this is low-hanging fruit to deal with and long past due.

Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by leereeves on Monday August 05, 2019 @10:37AM (#20614543)
The vast majority of killers aren't aiming to kill a lot of people. Just one, usually. You're focusing on the dramatic mass killings instead of the significant majority of murderers, who could switch to knives and acid.

And then there are the mass killers, but since vehicles won't be banned because they have "overwhelmingly more legitimate use", they would remain available for mass killings. As would bombs, though that does require more skill than the other weapons.

And guns would remain available too. Gun control does very little to prevent criminals from obtaining guns, as the gun crime rate in Chicago shows.

Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by throw0101a on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:01PM (#20617404)
> The vast majority of killers aren't aiming to kill a lot of people.

The amount of low-level carnage that happens daily in the US from either incompetent, negligent, or malicious gun owners is quite impressive:

* https://twitter.com/Well_Regulated_/status/11575509903437127...

* https://twitter.com/Well_Regulated_/status/11578845404777594...

* https://twitter.com/Well_Regulated_/status/11581452335924346...

* https://twitter.com/Well_Regulated_/status/11582078708082647...

A total ban on firearms isn't even necessary; just a filter on the dumb asses and hot heads:

* https://www.vox.com/2018/11/13/17658028/massachusetts-gun-co...

Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by jakelazaroff on Monday August 05, 2019 @10:55AM (#20614668)
> And then there are the mass killers, but since vehicles won't be banned because they have "overwhelmingly more legitimate use", they would remain available for mass killings.

Yet curiously, almost all mass murders are committed with guns, not vehicles.

Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by leereeves on Monday August 05, 2019 @11:04AM (#20614745)
The ones you hear about, because there's a political agenda behind publicizing them.

Have you heard about any of these?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-ramming_attack

Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by throw0101a on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @08:18AM (#20633973)
You don't hear a lot about many of them because there are only so many hours in the day:

* https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/mass-shooting

Compare the list of Canada which fits on one page (going back to 1689):

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Canada

to the US, which has page-per-year breakdowns:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_...

Canada has the sixth-highest firearm ownership rate, yet has a death rate lower than many EU countries:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_g...

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-r...

So firearms aren't alien to Canadians, and yet the number of blood baths occurring is much, much lower. Incidents do occur:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_van_attack

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Toronto_shooting

but much less frequently.

Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by jakelazaroff on Monday August 05, 2019 @11:29AM (#20614932)
You say political agenda, but your own source lists the most recent vehicle attack as occurring last year, and no casualties occurred. Multiple mass shootings have claimed tens of lives in the past few days alone.
Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by leereeves on Monday August 05, 2019 @12:06PM (#20615211)
Are we reading the same page?

The most recent attack listed in my source was in March of this year and killed six.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaoyang_car_attack

And that's just the last time someone added one to the page. I doubt the list is comprehensive or that was the last attack.

Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by toyg on Monday August 05, 2019 @12:43PM (#20615589)
He clearly meant the last attack on American soil.
Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by leereeves on Monday August 05, 2019 @01:22PM (#20616048)
I think we all agree American murderers prefer to use guns rather than vehicles or acid. That's our culture. But it's not worse than other cultures where murderers prefer to use acid or knives or vehicles or bombs.
Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by jakelazaroff on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @07:44AM (#20624267)
It's a pragmatic preference, not a cultural one: guns are much better murder weapons than cars.
Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by TheOtherHobbes on Monday August 05, 2019 @08:38AM (#20613632)
Only the US has a religious mythology of personal gun use. Guns aren't just weapons, they're practically symbols of inspired personal expression.

So it's not just easy access to guns. It's the surrounding culture of gun play, gun heroism, gun rhetoric, gun rights, gun "freedom", gun permissiveness, guns-make-you-a-real-person-who-matters - and so on.

Other countries don't have anything like the same culture to anything like the same extent. Which is why you can have equivalent levels of gun ownership without the same problems.

Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by Fjolsvith on Monday August 05, 2019 @09:45AM (#20614124)
Agreed. The US was probably the first country to rely on personal arms ownership to establish their independence. Its important to Americans.
Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by Frondo on Monday August 05, 2019 @10:31AM (#20614493)
It's important to Americans because it's been sold to us as a fictitious part of a national identity. The gun industry has very successfully crafted this narrative, to the point where so many people take it for granted now, but it wasn't always this way; this is a thing that developed in (depending on age) some of our lifetimes.

Here's a book that takes a closer look at how guns took on this sort of mythic role -- more special than other tools and appliances -- in American identity:

https://www.pamelahaag.com/books/gunning-of-america/

Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by Fjolsvith on Monday August 05, 2019 @11:59AM (#20615156)
Funny. I kinda thought it was the U.S. Constitution that sold us on guns.
Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by Frondo on Monday August 05, 2019 @12:53PM (#20615690)
No, and until 2008's Heller vs DC decision, private gun ownership was not considered an established right. America's status as a gun-loving nation is a relatively modern invention, and entirely one devised by gun manufacturers. It's working, too (and with somewhat predictable results).
Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by Fjolsvith on Monday August 05, 2019 @01:59PM (#20616487)
> until 2008's Heller vs DC decision, private gun ownership was not considered an established right.

Only in certain circles.

Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by 9HZZRfNlpR on Monday August 05, 2019 @09:54AM (#20614209)
Just take a look at the pop culture. Music is full of guns and showing violence can be hip. This horrible culture is now in exported to others countries too but nevertheless only in America people would dismiss it as ohh it's just showbusiness.
Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by CapricornNoble on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:24PM (#20617745)
TV too. Living in Japan I find Japanese TV overwhelmingly boring, lots of shows of minor celebrities reacting to things (uncomfortable situations, food, travel)....with almost the exact same expression, every time. That, or drama shows with terrible acting.

Then I come back to the States and I'm honestly shocked at how macabre American TV is in comparison. It's non-stop crime shows, murder investigations, action, and militarism, with a shootout key to the resolution of almost any episode.

Is it any surprise that Americans reach for their weapons to solve problems with increasing regularity? I blame American's Puritanical streak.....we can't have nice, pleasant things like topless women on TV like they do in Europe.

Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by bart_spoon on Monday August 05, 2019 @09:05AM (#20613837)
I'm not sure this is something we can assume, as I don't think there is a country with anywhere close to the same levels of gun ownership as the US.
Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by lapnitnelav on Monday August 05, 2019 @09:01AM (#20613816)
I remember seeing a picture of a somewhat old gun (WW2 era) repainted in bright colours and the amount of hate the poster got from people left and right.

This doesn't fit in the 'a gun is a tool' mindset, it's fetishism, pure and simple.

Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by pnutjam on Monday August 05, 2019 @11:07AM (#20614760)
That's dangerous because gun owners have convinced people their kids are safe if they play with toy guns that don't look like real guns.

They aren't, but it's a convenient fiction.

Re:Terminating Service for 8Chan by CapricornNoble on Monday August 05, 2019 @03:08PM (#20617509)
>>>Occam's razor would assume that the unique extent to which firearms are readily available in the US probably has a major connection to the unique extent to which mass shootings and gun violence occurs.

Well let's look at just the United States, over time, rather than the US compared to other countries. In the US, a proliferation of firearms has been a constant throughout our history. But it is only recently (really starting with Columbine) that we've had REGULAR outbursts, almost always by men under 30. I would hypothesize that the elephants in the room are a)prescription psychotropic drugs and their side-effects b)constant negative media about males/toxic masculinity c)overall ineffective child-rearing practices and extended adolescence, some of which stems from a reduction in two-parent households.

These are vague partly because so few people will take a deep dive into these subjects when so much money flows from these influences (pharmaceuticals, media, etc...).

But why aren't we looking at the variables, instead of the constant?

>>>it is absolutely progress to have mass murderers be forced to utilize something like a knife than head on down the street and pick up an automatic/semi-automatic weapon.

1. You can't "head on down the street" and pick up an automatic weapon in the US. You need a Federal Firearms License for that. And historically, FFL holders are some of the most law-abiding citizens in the country. Even if there were a ban on semi-auto weapons, the market would adapt. I've already brainstormed on how to optimize a bolt-action rifle for rapid, sustained fire and I'm not even a firearms designer.

2. Tightening the gun proliferation sounds great...in theory. How do you actually accomplish it in practice? There are 300 million+ firearms spread across the country in about 40% of households. This is a land area greater than that occupied by the Germans on the Eastern Front, with a greater number of potential "partisans", and the Germans never even came CLOSE to securing their rear areas. That anyone expects widespread gun confiscations to NOT turn into a bloodbath is naive IMO, and if the objective is saving lives than it would also be counter-productive.

3. Maybe the mass murders will switch to homemade explosives instead of knives, which would be a significantly WORSE outcome? Ever think of that? Maybe they'll get guidance from jihadis. Hell, explosives already gave us one of the worst school massacres in American history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster