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Re:Equifax removed the $125 claim payout option after millio... by patio11 on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @09:39PM (#20580478)
This statement, which is currently greyed out, is an objective statement of engineering fact about one of the most important technologies introduced in the last one hundred years.

I hope I have bought enough street cred to say the following by ghostwriting hundreds of letters to the credit reporting agencies to fix their problems, which are numerous and essentially inevitable given their model and present operations.

Credit scores are important because they allow banks to do standardized, automated underwriting for effectively free at 2 AM in the morning, which is what makes credit abundantly available in the United States and one of the reasons why it is so cheap to the middle class. (This routinely escapes the notice of people in the middle class, but the ordinary operation of banks is to advance well-organized people money for free and pay you to be chosen to do so, partly due to credit scores making this a derisked proposition and partly due to interchange revenue.)

Credit scores decimated the costs of unsecured consumer loans, as is readily observable by seeing what loan availability, pricing, and the "credit box" looks like when they're not available for underwriting. (This is a term of art in consumer credit that I provide for your future Googling pleasure, not having enough time to explain it at the moment.) Compare the cost on a cash advance on any card in your wallet to a payday lender. That delta is substantially (not solely) due to credit scores, both in improved understanding of default risk and in reduced operational cost (of underwriting and servicing, both enabled by the scoring infrastructure).

Credit scores are an important justice-enhancing technology because they make the inputs to an underwriting decision objectively observable and for the first time in history those inputs provably do not include race, religion, etc.

There is an argument which is not immediately dismissible that credit scores are based on borrower behavior which reflects the socioeconomic realities of the United States and therefore somehow effectively encode race, but it is an obvious improvement that banks now mechanically reach the same decision on similarly situated white and black borrowers. Regulation did not make that happen. FICO did.

I think well-off computer programmers should understand that there is a societal tradeoff which buys "middle class black Americans have the same access to credit you do" at the cost of Equifax knowing your credit limits; understand that if you are advocating for rolling back the second you should accept that ceteris paribus we will experience material disimprovement on the first.

(Obligatory disclaimer: personal opinion here.)

Re:Equifax removed the $125 claim payout option after millio... by beefield on Thursday August 01, 2019 @01:51AM (#20581322)
Sorry, I am not that confident about that. I live in Europe, and to my knowledge we do not have that kind of credit score companies (there are databases about people who have defaulted their debts, though), and to my knowledge it is banks themselves that do the credit evaluation.[1] And credit for middle class is to my standards pretty cheap enough here as well.

[1] More than happy to be corrected here with sources, I just have not ever heard about Equifax-like company in Europe

Re:Equifax removed the $125 claim payout option after millio... by svennek on Thursday August 01, 2019 @03:56AM (#20581908)
Of course they do (exist in Europe).

Most companies giving you a credit of some sort (banks, phone contracts, ...) are required to do vetting of you.

To help them do that, they use credit rating bureaus.

In Europe, you as a private person just don't know it and don't have access to your own rating. But you are likely to be rated anyways..

Here is one danish example (at least three exists)

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=da&tl=en&u=https%3...

Re:Equifax removed the $125 claim payout option after millio... by donaltroddyn on Thursday August 01, 2019 @05:11AM (#20582262)
> In Europe, you as a private person just don't know it and don't have access to your own rating. But you are likely to be rated anyways..

In the E.U., there are no private organisations who can process your personal data without making it available to you on request.

In Ireland, there's a state-run Central Credit Register, to which lenders must submit any consumer credit agreement above €200, and which they must check by law before issuing credit. Anyone can apply online to get their credit history from the CCR, and make submissions to correct inaccuracies.

There's also the Irish Credit Bureau, a private organisation with a similar purpose. They are also required to reveal data held about you on request, and correct inaccurate data held.

Re:Equifax removed the $125 claim payout option after millio... by lunchables on Thursday August 01, 2019 @08:47AM (#20583263)
In the US you can request your credit score once per year from each credit rating angecy at no cost.
Re:Equifax removed the $125 claim payout option after millio... by tk75x on Thursday August 01, 2019 @10:41AM (#20584079)
The thing you can request once per year from annualcreditreport is your credit report, which doesn't include your score. Your score is accessible for free from websites like creditkarma or through most credit card online accounts, usually once a month although I have seen ones which update twice a month.
Re:Equifax removed the $125 claim payout option after millio... by jaclaz on Thursday August 01, 2019 @06:15AM (#20582544)
In Italy there is a Centrale Rischi, but is a government/public service (run by the Bank of Italy):

https://www.bancaditalia.it/statistiche/raccolta-dati/centra...

and I believe that in the end (now it is partial/experimental/in the works AFAICU) there will be an European Registry at the BCE (Anacredit):

https://www.ecb.europa.eu/stats/money_credit_banking/anacred...

Though there is no "public" access to the data in the Centrale Rischi, you can have it going in person to the Bank of Italy, the issue is that - if you find an error/mistake - it must be corrected by the bank/agency/whatever that made the erroneous entry, and this can sometimes be a nightmare, not so much with banks, but with smallish financial service agancies (that might have - in the meantime - changed property or going in default, etc.).

Re:Equifax removed the $125 claim payout option after millio... by Erwin on Thursday August 01, 2019 @06:48AM (#20582699)
AFAIK the KreditRegisteret you linked to is required because Denmark, not part of Euro, does not have access to AnaCredit. So it's more of a tool for financial stability, and not private loan estimates. What is EU's AnaCredit?

> AnaCredit is a dataset with detailed information on individual bank loans in the euro area. The name stands for “analytical credit datasets”. The ECB launched the project in 2011 – together with the euro area and some non-euro area national central banks. It uses data and national credit registers to achieve a harmonised database that supports several central banking functions, such as decision-making in monetary policy and macroprudential supervision.

In Denmark I'm mostly aware of RKI, which seems to be owned by Experian now. If you fail to pay your loans, you end up on that bad payer list. Otherwise getting a loan is a private matter between you and your bank unless you want to use a third party lender

Re:Equifax removed the $125 claim payout option after millio... by beefield on Thursday August 01, 2019 @04:45AM (#20582159)
I'd like to get some further sources. Below is what Wikipedia has to say about Danish credit scoring[1] (emphasis mine) I know there are databases the store your information if you have defaulted your loans, but that is (to me) very different thing to actual credit scoring, which obviously any entity in credit business is and should be doing. I would be very keen to know (some of) the companies that sell actual credit scores of individual people in (mainland) Europe, and possibly shoot a GDPR request at them.

The Wikipedia snippet:

The credit scoring is widely used in Denmark by the banks and a number of private companies within telco and others. The credit scoring is split in two:

    Private: The probability of defaulting
    Businesses: The probability of bankruptcy
For privates, the credit scoring is always made by the creditor. For businesses it is either made by the creditor or by a third party.

There are a few companies who have specialized in developing credit scorecards in Denmark:

    Experian (generic rating for business)
    Bisnode (generic rating for business)
The credit scorecards in Denmark are mainly based on information provided by the applicant and publicly available data. It is very restricted by legislation compared to its neighbouring countries.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_score#Denmark

Re:Equifax removed the $125 claim payout option after millio... by tallanvor on Thursday August 01, 2019 @04:26AM (#20582075)
Banks in Norway use Experian to check your risk. Anytime you apply for a loan you'll get a letter in the mail from Experian a few days later letting you know who made the request and what their response was.
Re:Equifax removed the $125 claim payout option after millio... by beefield on Thursday August 01, 2019 @05:04AM (#20582239)
Does Experian response with an actual credit score as opposed to information whether you have defaulted some of your loans recently or not?
Re:Equifax removed the $125 claim payout option after millio... by benj111 on Thursday August 01, 2019 @03:31AM (#20581777)
The UK is in Europe (for now) and has Equifax and the other credit reference agencies.
Re:Equifax removed the $125 claim payout option after millio... by Glawen on Thursday August 01, 2019 @03:59AM (#20581932)
The UK imports all the shitty things from the US, instead of looking at what the european are doing: - No national ID, so identity theft is easier - For a long time, no pin code on credit card, so that theft is easier Basically they keep the stuff which trick the consumer, whereas in Europe they make law to protect consumer.

I really hope they leave the EU and stop bothering us with their shitty ideas, credit reference beeing one

Re:Equifax removed the $125 claim payout option after millio... by jdietrich on Thursday August 01, 2019 @06:00AM (#20582465)
>No national ID, so identity theft is easier

We don't want national identity cards; the Blair government tried to introduce them in 2006 and failed due to massive public opposition. We think it's a bit weird that other EU nationals are so tolerant of the government having a massive centralised database tied to a single token.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Cards_Act_2006

>For a long time, no pin code on credit card, so that theft is easier

Most of our debit card market is Visa/Mastercard, so we switched to Chip and PIN in 2006 - the same time as most international markets. Some European markets had their own local debit card schemes but these schemes were far from perfect.

>Basically they keep the stuff which trick the consumer, whereas in Europe they make law to protect consumer.

Last time I checked, we were still in the EU and still subject to EU law. We implemented the GDPR (and our regulator is one of the most proactive in actually enforcing it), we implemented the Consumer Rights Directive and we were well ahead of the curve in many areas, particularly distance selling and consumer finance.

Re:Equifax removed the $125 claim payout option after millio... by vasco on Thursday August 01, 2019 @07:59AM (#20583006)
You have drivers licenses and bank cards and passports already. Having a national ID just makes a bunch of stuff easier and identity theft harder.
Re:Equifax removed the $125 claim payout option after millio... by jdietrich on Thursday August 01, 2019 @10:57AM (#20584268)
A national ID card is a single point of failure. If I need to verify my ID for something important, I'll usually be asked for two forms of ID documents which may be subject to additional verification.
Re:Equifax removed the $125 claim payout option after millio... by benj111 on Thursday August 01, 2019 @04:13AM (#20582002)
How do any of your examples 'trick' the consumer?
Re:Equifax removed the $125 claim payout option after millio... by mikeash on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @10:55PM (#20580758)
It’s effectively for free, except for the massive society wide risk of fraud that they’ve foisted upon all of us. The stuff looks cheap because, like any polluting industry, the price does not reflect the true cost.

Surely there’s some third alternative other than “incompetent credit bureaus enable fraud” and “minorities have bad access to credit because lenders are super racist”?

Re:Equifax removed the $125 claim payout option after millio... by pcmaffey on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @11:18PM (#20580831)
Also the existence of a centralized credit system increases the cost of not participating in the system. The lack of real competition (eg. for middle class credit) is what essentially leads to a polluted industry.
Re:Equifax removed the $125 claim payout option after millio... by JJMcJ on Thursday August 01, 2019 @09:15PM (#20589953)
> It’s effectively for free, except for

Also except for the risk that financial problems will force a cardholder into accruing interest, and often that interest will get a lot worse if payments are missed a 5% card changes into a 22% card if more than some number of payments are late and some number may be just 1.

Re:Equifax removed the $125 claim payout option after millio... by sbierwagen on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @04:25PM (#20638570)
Why do you believe lenders are super racist?
Re:Equifax removed the $125 claim payout option after millio... by telchar on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @11:05PM (#20580799)
Most of what you say is correct but it's wrong to say that regulation isn't responsible for race being absent from FICO calculation. It's fair to say that lenders would use factors like race in a heartbeat if it weren't illegal, but it is illegal to do that. If FICO were race-based, using FICO would be depending on race indirectly, but explicitly, to make loan decisions. Thus FICO can't be dependent on race.
Re:Equifax removed the $125 claim payout option after millio... by hn_throwaway_99 on Thursday August 01, 2019 @01:16AM (#20581233)
I just wanted to say thank you, because this is exactly the kind of HN discussion that I find valuable (and increasingly rare in public discourse). It's so easy to get on the "credit bureaus are evil" bandwagon, especially in this story where Equifax's statements are honestly downright insulting, and your comment made me put away my pitchfork for a second and reflect on the benefits that credit scores give us. Yes, there are certainly arguments that one can have about the respective costs and benefits of credit scores, but it's good to know we can have informed debate about those pros and cons.
Re:Equifax removed the $125 claim payout option after millio... by ineedasername on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @10:02PM (#20580576)
Very thoughtful and interesting. From the perspective of credit monitoring though, while they provide a social good with credit scores and risk assessment, they do so for a profit on the back of consumer information. For something like fraud monitoring, it seems almost an ethical imperative (in the social contract sense) to share information about potential fraud with the people whose information powers your business.
Re:Equifax removed the $125 claim payout option after millio... by p49k on Thursday August 01, 2019 @06:22AM (#20582571)
I’m sorry, but it’s pretty absurd to boldly claim that credit scores are provably objective with regard to race, etc. I’d recommend reading _The Big Test_ for another history of a supposedly objective measurement of merit (the SAT) which turned out to be highly discriminatory. Removing discrimination from a system is not as simple as removing such info from its inputs.