When there's a cure for cancer that prevents Alzheimer's and grants immortality I'll come to HN to find out why it's shitty.

There's a trove of clever people on HN, I never lookup usernames or track who posts what. It's enlightening in a way to remember even smart people are still people.

> There's a trove of clever people on HN

I think there is trove of people who think they are clever on HN. Most likely includes me, but I don't comment much because of that reason.

Disc: Googler.

I’m confused. Why was the Google disclaimer necessary?

It is better to post excessive disclaimers on the chance they're not necessary than to accidentally not post one where it's relevant.

This post and the parent comment they responded to are both about Google?

Most large companies have policies stating that employees have to disclose their affiliation on social media when talking about any matter concerning the company or its products. No one really follows it, but still.

That's easy, over population is why it's shitty.

This echo's exactly what I was thinking.

I suppose once you hate something, it becomes impossible to acknowledge that any good can come from that thing. Which is unfortunate.

There is a plethora of things I really don't like about Google, but I make a conscious effort (and it's hard sometimes!) to acknowledge the good they do, when they do it.

P0 is one of the things in the "good" column of Google.

Hacker News has become tribal and politicized, much like many other parts of the internet.

There are multiple tribes represented in HN. I know, having been on here for years. I've met face to face with other HNers who might today disguise themselves and punch me in the street. I also continue to have productive and (at times) civil discussions with them, even in today's crazy climate.

Very true. And both Apple- and Google-related discussions brings out both sides in force. In this case we have a story that involves both, so I am not at all surpised to see it get contentious.

Personally, I've observed (via the voting mechanism and commentary) several different cohorts of people visit HN throughout the day. You get a real sense that opinions are regional and tribal. Europeans in the early morning, then east coast and flyover states, and then brace for impact when SV (in particular Googlers and/or pro-Googlers) pile on. It's fascinating.

I think the trends you are seeing, are most likely due to bias and not objective analysis. Try as we might, humans are subjective beings and truth is difficult for us discern, especially with so many variables.

Well, yes, of course I have not done a rigorous scientific analysis. But I can tell you from repeated experiences that if I say anything a bit critical of Europe or Europeans then I will get downvoted heavily in the wee hours of the day, and almost always will make that up and then some about midday (Pacific time). On the other hand, if I say something critical of Google then in the wee hours it'll usually get a bunch of upvotes, and then lose them all about midday.

No science here, absolutely, but I have had great success so far predicting in advance what the voting pattern is going to be on a comment I make. I treat it a bit like a sport.

There's a lot of potential value in influencing public opinion.

Tribal Australian here. No, its not politics. This research is a very rare occasion that Google did something good. All other actions are evilcorp, hence the emotions. AMP, analytics in every page on internet, Chrome autologins, blocking 3rd party email servers, the list is big.

I installed innocent piece of Google SW on my Mac, Android File Transfer [0]. Immediately it tried to install several launch agents, driving BlockBlock [1] crazy. Uninstalled right away without opening the app.

People tend to subconsciously forget that Google is an Ad company by 85% of revenue.

[0] https://www.android.com/filetransfer/ [1] https://objective-see.com/products/blockblock.html

It's right there on the FileTransfer page... "Open Android File Transfer. The next time that you connect your device, it opens automatically".

That's not magic mate, something needs to monitor for your Android device being connected otherwise you'd complain that it's not as user friendly as other Mac apps.

You're right. But it was a minor point in my post. Main point was data siphoning from users of all Google services, software and devices as primary business model. I might've overreacted with this app because of my lack of trust to Google.

>Even if Google specifically started and ran Project Zero to target competitor's products

Many Googlers use iOS. I am not a Google fanboy (I prefer DuckDuckGo) but I don't think it's accurate to paint this as an attack on Apple. Not everything Google does is good, but Project Zero is a good thing IMHO.

The way the article frames it also doesn't help. It feels like they're trying to make it sound more like an attack to get more views. I'd definitely like a better and more technical source than the BBC, especially on HN.

How it is appalling that people disagree with you? You say yourself that it is a "net benefit" meaning there are things to disagree with. Your opinion isn't the one being hidden en masse. I tend to find it appalling to when hacker news argues against for example a free press and when publications like valley wag and democracy now was banned. Arguing against arguably the most powerful software company in the world because you disagree with their practices? Not so much. That is essentially the entire raison d'etre for being a hacker. That doesn't mean you have to agree with them, but it certainly makes it weird to dismiss people for it. Especially in a "we should know better" way.

>How it is appalling that people disagree with you?

They didn't say they were appalled at people disagreeing with them. They said they were appalled at the lambasting. There is valid criticism raised here, but the majority of the criticism is based solely on the fact that its P0. Not for any technical reason. Not for any security related reason. Just because it's Google. If you think "Google is worse than China and Russia" is a worthy criticism... So be it.

>I tend to find it appalling to when hacker news argues against for example a free press

Huh. Can you expand on this, in the context of this thread?

>Arguing against arguably the most powerful software company in the world because you disagree with their practices?

Very few of the legitimate criticism I have seen here has been about P0's practices - and the ones that have brought up P0's practices have brought it up in the context of the security industry as a whole (i.e. what responsible disclosure should be).

> They didn't say they were appalled at people disagreeing with them. They said they were appalled at the lambasting

Whether you think something is legitimate criticism or not is subjective and I don't see an argument why it is. Anyone is certainly free to argue, or not argue, with those comment and they have.

> Huh. Can you expand on this, in the context of this thread?

I was calling out the line "I thought Hacker News would have a community which understands the critical importance of security research". People argue against important things here all the time.

> Very few of the legitimate criticism I have seen here has been about P0's practices [...]

Again, subjective. Here is the first comment hidden by downvotes:

'Why should end-users "have nothing but gratitude" when vulnerabilities are disclosed and they are immediately placed at risk until they get a chance to update, even when the vendor has promptly provided a correct patch? I know I certainly don't appreciate that and can't reasonably expect any normal person to appreciate it either.'

Seems like a legitimate opinion to me. (The same users had almost all their comments downvoted as well, most of which seem perfectly fine). There are a number of others saying that Google has a conflict of interest, which also seems legitimate.

What I see is people doing everything they can to not address those arguments. It is one thing to call out people when they are the majority, another when mostly normal comments are being suppressed. That is not legitimate if anything. I can't see how the people creating that environment expect to get anything out of it, but I guess that isn't the point. Very few smart people you meet in real life spend any time on hacker news.

So you think, in defense of free speech, Google shouldn't be allowed to talk about what it found in Apple's products.