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Re:Man Who Built the Retweet: “We Handed a Loaded Weapon to ... by pjc50 on Thursday July 25, 2019 @12:33PM (#20526785)
Gamergate was a harassment movement aimed at women in videogames that had some very smart people thinking of justifications and excuses to protect it in public.
Re:Man Who Built the Retweet: “We Handed a Loaded Weapon to ... by Reedx on Thursday July 25, 2019 @12:40PM (#20526869)
That's conflating the actions of trolls with people that were critical of activists. Those are not at all the same thing. The former is NOT ok, the latter is ok and should result in healthy debate.

But because Twitter doesn't like nuance, those get collapsed into a single, simple and most outrage-inducing format. A black & white hero/villain narrative. Which also avoids having to deal with any critiques, regardless of validity.

Re:Man Who Built the Retweet: “We Handed a Loaded Weapon to ... by minimaxir on Thursday July 25, 2019 @12:43PM (#20526901)
That ambiguity was a deliberate strategy of Gamergate (and still is a deliberate strategy even today of those with similar disposition).
Re:Man Who Built the Retweet: “We Handed a Loaded Weapon to ... by dvtrn on Thursday July 25, 2019 @01:07PM (#20527237)
Is it truly possible to know if this was a deliberate strategy of Gamergate? I’ve heard this statement before and when I try to politely challenge it...the results aren’t as kind in return.

Hoping that isn’t the case here, because I am perhaps inappropriately curious if an answer exists.

Re:Man Who Built the Retweet: “We Handed a Loaded Weapon to ... by pwinnski on Thursday July 25, 2019 @01:16PM (#20527328)
Yes, it's beyond possible. It's a certainty. Contemporaneous logs[0] revealed the deliberate efforts of mysoginistic trolls to pretend their motivations were more palatable.

[0] https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/09/new-chat-logs-show-ho...

Re:Man Who Built the Retweet: “We Handed a Loaded Weapon to ... by dmix on Thursday July 25, 2019 @02:03PM (#20527770)
Trolls always try to wrap their attacks in semi-agreeable contexts so it doesn't get immediately dismissed and can enter mainstream channels. That's the whole idea. Similar to how activists try to wrap everyone who disagrees with them as mere sexists/racists/etc to give their arguments weight and credibility in those same channels - usually using the troll's purposefully provocative behaviour as their evidence and justification.

It's an increasingly popular phenomenon that we need to be conscious of as a culture and not give credence to the trolls while also not using examples from the fringe to pigeonhole the whole.

Re:Man Who Built the Retweet: “We Handed a Loaded Weapon to ... by dvtrn on Thursday July 25, 2019 @01:22PM (#20527390)
Interesting. Proceeding to read your link this moment

I admit-despite being someone who plays a lot of video games quite frequently I didn't wade into these waters because from the sidelines it looked like a lot of people painting things with very wide brushes and a lot of static noise that made trying to sift through any of it more annoying than it was worth.

Re:Man Who Built the Retweet: “We Handed a Loaded Weapon to ... by brokenkebab on Thursday July 25, 2019 @12:54PM (#20527046)
Do you realize you are employing typical defence of any conspiracy theory when facing the fact that an alleged conspiracy doesn't look consistent to be real? And I mean absolutely literally. That exact statement I heard from people who believe in ZOG.
Re:Man Who Built the Retweet: “We Handed a Loaded Weapon to ... by happytoexplain on Thursday July 25, 2019 @01:50PM (#20527655)
You've in fact heard lots of reasonable sentences from conspiracy theorists, if you replace the nouns. I think it's less reasonable to believe in ZOG than to have the opinion that Gamergate appeared to be more about childish mockery and hatred than the more weighty concept of journalistic integrity. By the logic you're implying, we can't accept that anything is any more or less than exactly what it's most well-spoken proponents try to present it as.
Re:Man Who Built the Retweet: “We Handed a Loaded Weapon to ... by brokenkebab on Thursday July 25, 2019 @02:01PM (#20527756)
A conspiracy theorist can say reasonable things, however this exact thing is a circular argument: conspiracy exists but our proof doesn't look convincing exactly because it is conspiracy.

There are no generalizations in my comment which you implied.

Re:Man Who Built the Retweet: “We Handed a Loaded Weapon to ... by pjc50 on Thursday July 25, 2019 @01:16PM (#20527336)
We know gamergate was a conspiracy because someone found the IRC channel where the conspirators were conspiring.
Re:Man Who Built the Retweet: “We Handed a Loaded Weapon to ... by brokenkebab on Thursday July 25, 2019 @01:35PM (#20527513)
The proof of which existed only in form of a picture posted by 'someone' who (mildly speaking) was deeply involved in the controversy.
Re:Man Who Built the Retweet: “We Handed a Loaded Weapon to ... by Frondo on Thursday July 25, 2019 @01:10PM (#20527277)
It's not just gamergate that uses that ambiguity -- think of how the "okay" symbol ("o" formed with thumb and first finger, remaining three extended upward) has been repurposed as a white power gesture; all of the group photos of proud boys and other white supremacist groups now have them all holding up that distinctive "okay" hand gesture, because it's a call out to their values and to the people that share them.

But when the 4channers were first starting to use it this way, it could be dismissed as "what, it's just an okay symbol"...

The ambiguity ("it's just a joke, it's just this, it's just that") is part of their discourse.

Re:Man Who Built the Retweet: “We Handed a Loaded Weapon to ... by minimaxir on Thursday July 25, 2019 @01:19PM (#20527361)
Yes, that's what I was alluding to.
Re:Man Who Built the Retweet: “We Handed a Loaded Weapon to ... by davesmith1983 on Thursday July 25, 2019 @05:48PM (#20530123)
The proud boys are a strange white power group when they have prominent black members.
Re:Man Who Built the Retweet: “We Handed a Loaded Weapon to ... by Frondo on Friday July 26, 2019 @10:33AM (#20535072)
I'm glad you didn't dispute that they're a white power group; for interested readers who waded this far into the comments, here are some useful links:

* https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounders/proud-boys * https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/grou...

Re:Man Who Built the Retweet: “We Handed a Loaded Weapon to ... by davesmith1983 on Friday July 26, 2019 @02:16PM (#20537011)
Obviously I was disputing it.

You do know that Gavin McInnes wife is an Indian right and he started the proud boys as a joke? Do do know that right?

I wouldn't believe everything you read from those sources. The SPLC just had to apologise and pay 3.3 million to Maajid Nawas because they called him Islamophobic and he is a Muslim. Maajid Nawas was suing them for deformation in the UK.

https://www.splcenter.org/news/2018/06/18/splc-statement-reg...

Re:Man Who Built the Retweet: “We Handed a Loaded Weapon to ... by Frondo on Friday July 26, 2019 @05:11PM (#20538357)
If you'd like to post anything refuting the fact that the Proud Boys are a white supremacist group, please do so.

None of these statements: 1) they have non-white members so they can't be, 2) the founder has a non-white wife, 3) the SPL Center was successfully sued for unrelated reasons by someone unrelated to the Proud Boys, or 3) "it started as a joke" refute the claim.

Re:Man Who Built the Retweet: “We Handed a Loaded Weapon to ... by davesmith1983 on Friday July 26, 2019 @06:16PM (#20538846)
No sorry this is backwards. I don't have to prove anything. I wasn't making a claim they were (and it is quite a serious claim).

As far as I am concerned there is no evidence other than spurious claims from the SPLC and the ADL.

I gave you evidence that the SPLC throws the racism (Islamophobia is a very similar accusation) around too liberally and because Maajid Nawas is in the UK that has tighter defamation laws he was able sue them for a substantial amount of money. If the SPLC doesn't do basic research about Maajid Nawas, how can you trust they have done their research about the Proud Boys? The answer is you can't.

And sorry those statements do somewhat refute the claim. White-supremacists wouldn't have non-white people in their movement. White-supremacists wouldn't have children with non-whites (they call those people race-traitors). The movement was started as a joke (Gavin McInnes was on Joe Rogan Podcast 920 & 710 I believe it was one of these appearances where he specifically coined the term, but it could be an earlier appearance on his show).

So I can back up everything I've said. All I've seen presented so far from you is smear pieces by organisations that even Noam Chomsky has criticised in the past.

Re:Man Who Built the Retweet: “We Handed a Loaded Weapon to ... by happytoexplain on Thursday July 25, 2019 @01:44PM (#20527584)
There is the possibility of conflating between members who are hateful trolls vs members who are honestly critical, and there is the possibility of any given movement being legitimately defined by hatefulness, by sheer membership and public expression alone. It's hard to draw a line between those two things, but I think, personally, based on tons of experience in the places Gamergaters were most prevalent, that Gamergate lay on the hateful side of that imaginary line, and in fact was not even particularly close to the line.
Re:Man Who Built the Retweet: “We Handed a Loaded Weapon to ... by davesmith1983 on Thursday July 25, 2019 @12:56PM (#20527081)
No it wasn't. I actually looked into the whole saga as I kept on hearing about it (back in 2015ish).

From what I could gleen there were some individual women that said disparaging remarks about a whole group of individuals and were surprised when they got push back from the rest of the community which btw included women.

I've noticed more generally that one person will say something quite rude about a whole group of people, people quite rightly tell them to shove it and leave them alone and then that individual claims harassment.

Re:Man Who Built the Retweet: “We Handed a Loaded Weapon to ... by iamdelirium on Thursday July 25, 2019 @01:08PM (#20527241)
Then you didn't look at it that deep because it's generally agreed that what started the saga was a jilted boyfriend of a woman who created a video game accused a publication of giving her game a favorable review because the reviewer slept with her.

The entire accusation is bunk because it wasn't even the person accused of that didn't even review the game.

Re:Man Who Built the Retweet: “We Handed a Loaded Weapon to ... by davesmith1983 on Thursday July 25, 2019 @01:30PM (#20527470)
I looked plenty deep enough. That series of events is a very very dishonest and incomplete attempt at re-framing the whole issue and all the people involved.

I have very little to do generally with games, but I've had a similar situation (but at a much smaller scale) where people have claimed bullying (no such thing happened) after basically upsetting a large number of the group.

I am also old enough and seen enough scandals play out similarly in other spheres of the media. I have actually been at an event and the media mis-represented what happened. So I wouldn't trust a journalist as far as I can throw them.

Re:Man Who Built the Retweet: “We Handed a Loaded Weapon to ... by dmix on Thursday July 25, 2019 @12:45PM (#20526927)
That might be how the activists like to spin it but it became about much more than that when it blew up and went viral. It was really about an entire established lively and chaotic culture developed over multiple decades that people adored and got defensive over. So some heavy handed top down attempts to manually change it didn’t go over well.

Then the villainization of anyone who disagreed with the activists approach as women-haters who think it’s okay to harass women only increased backlash.

Re:Man Who Built the Retweet: “We Handed a Loaded Weapon to ... by dvtrn on Thursday July 25, 2019 @01:58PM (#20527730)
Then the villainization of anyone who disagreed with this approach as people who simply think it’s okay to harass women only increased backlash.

Is it recency bias on my part to say it feels like this tactic is showing up in more places than it deserves to? The last American election cycle was terrifying to watch for precisely what you just described happening all across Twitter and elsewhere on social media.

Assent with {group_A} or be labelled complicit with {group_B} by default with little headroom for nuance or context.

Re:Man Who Built the Retweet: “We Handed a Loaded Weapon to ... by dragonwriter on Thursday July 25, 2019 @11:45PM (#20532201)
> Is it recency bias on my part to say it feels like this tactic is showing up in more places than it deserves to?

No, but it is recency bias to think that it showing up in more places than it deserves to is novel. It has been an exceedingly common tactic everywhere for probably as long as civilization, or maybe language, has existed; it manifests in moral/religious/philosophical dualism, for instance, which is extremely widespread and ancient.

Re:Man Who Built the Retweet: “We Handed a Loaded Weapon to ... by dmix on Thursday July 25, 2019 @09:36PM (#20531601)
It’s a tactic that was perfect during the course of the last election. Which of course existed well before that but now it’s been refined for the internet and social media age.

I’m not looking forward to the next election.

Re:Man Who Built the Retweet: “We Handed a Loaded Weapon to ... by 013a on Thursday July 25, 2019 @01:33PM (#20527498)
Gamergate was an INSANELY complex situation, involving thousands of actors with differing and intentionally unclear motivations. It was eventually labeled as a "movement" by the opposition, not by the "members" of the "movement", in order to paint a picture of their persecution, whether valid or invalid. They wanted a platform. They were given one. And they exploited it.

I mean, Jesus, just read the wikipedia article.

> Frank Lantz of NYU's Game Center wrote that he could not find "a single explanation of a coherent Gamergate position". Christopher Grant, editor-in-chief of Polygon, told the Columbia Journalism Review: "The closest thing we've been able to divine is that it's noise. It's chaos [...] all you can do is find patterns. And ultimately Gamergate will be defined—I think has been defined—by some of its basest elements."

That's because there Was No Movement! The pattern recognition centers in human brains go beyond confusion when presented with a situation like this. You know how whenever Anonymous comes up in the news, it's always labeled "the online hacker group Anonymous"? It's utter insanity. It's not a group. It's not a movement. They don't have weekly meetings down at the VFA. It's just an asshole with a computer. And, in the case of Gamergate, there was a cultural zeitgeist involved. A thousand people send disgusting messages on Twitter; our brains have to believe there's a pattern, that there's organization. But what if there isn't? Because, well, there wasn't with Gamergate. It was just mob mentality.

Frankly, we're all better off just putting both sides of that whole shitstorm behind us, like most internet food fights. The assholes who harassed people were, well, assholes. The women they harassed didn't deserve what happened to them, but they also handled it very poorly. Streisand Effect hits. Now Anonymous has a spotlight, and you know they're going to abuse that. It's no longer about what they actually believe. Now, it's about Chaos. Because Chaos is Fun. You call them sexist. You call them bigots. They laugh. They don't care what you call them. But: You care what they're calling you. Now, they're in control. They have the power. You gave it to them.

Afterward, everyone rational is trying to figure out what happened, trying to derive a pattern and point fingers. It has to be someone's fault; we need content for this clickbait we're writing about it. The people involved are still laughing, because they're STILL controlling you. Just stop. Don't engage terrorists.

Re:Man Who Built the Retweet: “We Handed a Loaded Weapon to ... by pjc50 on Thursday July 25, 2019 @01:43PM (#20527574)
> Don't engage terrorists.

Right. Deplatform them, ban them, and prosecute them instead.