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Re:The Show Horse and the Work Horse by burlesona on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @11:15AM (#20507362)
Not emphasized in Johnny’s post, there’s also a ton of neighborhood pushback against flea markets and such in many communities. Basically the wealthier folks don’t like the aesthetics of these things, and will argue that they’re a nuisance or crime-magnets or whatever, a thin veneer over the discomfort they have with anything that draws a low income crowd.

You’ll see things like the “Sunday Farmers Market” that closes a block of a street somewhere because temporary event permits are much easier to get and harder to block, but the kind of semi-permanent marketplace described in the article remains rare.

And he’s right, cities don’t have a lot of incentive to try and make space for these sorts of entry level incubator environments because in most cases they can’t skim any tax off it - the underlying property is still just a parking lot and they usually can’t reassess the value for impermanent activities happening on top.

Re:The Show Horse and the Work Horse by jschwartzi on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @11:21AM (#20507422)
The city also doesn't have a way to measure the increase in tax revenue that comes from having a place to walk to that you can get food, tools, clothing, and supplies. I wish I didn't have to drive anywhere to get stuff, and if I lived near a flea market I actually wouldn't have to drive anywhere.
Re:The Show Horse and the Work Horse by lonelappde on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @02:56PM (#20509219)
Why would you say that? Cities ate constantly doing studies of revenue and cost impact. Forecasting revenue and traffic changes is bread and butter stuff.

Putting flea markets in walking distant of everyone is a terrible logistical model.

Re:The Show Horse and the Work Horse by WhyKill on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @03:15PM (#20509356)
Actually no, it's amazing one. This is how markets have been for thousands of years, within walking distance of the homes of the people using them. But yet it isn't compatible with modern "advances" like zoning, parking lots, and NIMBY driven politics.
Re:The Show Horse and the Work Horse by dTal on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @09:51AM (#20515240)
Zoning, in particular, is a terrible scourge on communities. It's hard to overstate the social damage caused by making it essentially illegal to build a functioning "village". I would go so far as to assert that it essentially shreds the fabric of society, both directly (by robbing people of shared local activities and context), and indirectly (by forcing everyone into cars to get anything done, where they can't interact with one another).

If you've ever lived in a town where shops, parks, living quarters, and government buildings are cheek-by-jowl within walking distance, a "zoned" area feels like a desert - unable to sustain life.

Re:The Show Horse and the Work Horse by erikpukinskis on Thursday July 25, 2019 @09:22PM (#20531518)
> it essentially shreds the fabric of society

This is intentional. You shred the fabric of society, then you can let companies sell all of it back to people and tax the value.

No tax revenue when your Auntie cools lunch for the neighborhood kids.

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Re:The Show Horse and the Work Horse by imesh on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @12:20AM (#20512346)
What makes you say that? I haven't seen feces at an open market in my life. Farmers markets exist currently, I don't understand the issue?
Re:The Show Horse and the Work Horse by dsfyu404ed on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @11:28AM (#20507495)
>there’s also a ton of neighborhood pushback against flea markets and such in many communities. Basically the wealthier folks don’t like the aesthetics of these things

Tons of perfectly fine things that don't really bother anyone are not allowed because wealthy people don't like the aesthetics.

Re:The Show Horse and the Work Horse by jandrese on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @12:55PM (#20508200)
"Don't like the aesthetics" is code for "it attracts minorities and the poor." The primary reason they or their direct ancestors moved out of the city in the first place was to get away from "those people".
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Re:The Show Horse and the Work Horse by dsfyu404ed on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @10:18PM (#20511918)
There's a heck of a lot of room for variation between "minorities and poor" and driving up the crime rate.

The blue collar dude with five cars and a project boat in his yard is totally unwelcome as far as the "muh property values" types care. He's not driving up the crime rate or leaving used needles around though.

Re:The Show Horse and the Work Horse by benj111 on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @12:30PM (#20507995)
"Basically the wealthier folks don’t like the aesthetics"

That's not inherent though. A nice French brocante sale basically sells tat, but its nice and acceptable.

I don't think its impossible that this flea market could become a hipster hang out. One of the eateries starts making a name for itself, and people start seeking it out. It isn't just poor people that want a functioning high st.

Edit: Spelling

Re:The Show Horse and the Work Horse by ImaCake on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @11:31PM (#20512198)
I've seen a similar market to the linked post in Berlin. It was a practical place and absolutely filled with hipsters and middle income families.
Re:The Show Horse and the Work Horse by pixelbash on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @04:18PM (#20509855)
> I don't think its impossible that this flea market could become a hipster hang out

Reminds me of Camden market

Re:The Show Horse and the Work Horse by jimmaswell on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @11:24AM (#20507453)
Maybe we should work on making cities less greedy about tax revenue and instead care more about benefiting the people who live there.
Re:The Show Horse and the Work Horse by Angostura on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @11:36AM (#20507572)
The problem is that's a lovely sentiment until there isn't enough money to keep the libraries open.
Re:The Show Horse and the Work Horse by bilbo0s on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @11:57AM (#20507751)
Yep. Schools, police, fire, water and sewer. That's the minimum price of entry. And that's with no nice to haves, like libraries, sidewalks, or snow and garbage removal. (And it assumes the state is willing to maintain most of a city's streets free of charge?)

Cities cost money. Lots of it.

Re:The Show Horse and the Work Horse by jimmaswell on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @11:56AM (#20507740)
Tiny rural towns manage to have libraries. Cities are just addicted to tax revenue.
Re:The Show Horse and the Work Horse by dragonwriter on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @12:50PM (#20508159)
> Tiny rural towns manage to have libraries.

Often, when they do, it is either:

(1) Because of state funding specifically for rural counties, which amounts to a revenue transfer from urban counties, or

(2) Because the rural town is in a county with, and deriving revenue from, a city, funding county libraries in the rural town as well as the city.

Even more often, tiny rural towns don't have public libraries, and you have to go to a neighboring town or the nearest city.

Re:The Show Horse and the Work Horse by dsfyu404ed on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @01:54PM (#20508722)
In my experience most small towns big enough to have any services have a "library" that is comprised of a few rooms in the shared town hall/police/public offices building that is run by some (usually senior citizen) volunteer(s) and has a fairly poor collection of books but can get anything you want on loan as long as you don't need it that day. If they don't have a library they probably have some other "nice to have but not essential" type service that's run in the same manner. My experience is limited to the rural northeast. I suspect the rural midwest is even more likely to have libraries because of how those towns were planned out back in the day.

I think your bias is showing.

Re:The Show Horse and the Work Horse by nitrogen on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @02:43PM (#20509126)
The parent comment would work better without (or rewording) the remark on bias.

I have lived in rural, suburban, and dense urban areas in my life (currently high density urban), and there is a bias on HN toward the idea that rural communities are unsustainable on their own and mere leeches on the city dwellers. That's likely true in some places, but not universally. Sustainable rural communities have exports of resources, housing, and/or tourism, that outweigh their cost.

As the parent comment describes, one model for remote communities is volunteers who work at the library because they care. The cost of everything is lower -- labor, food, matetials -- so what looks too expensive for a town might actually be fully sustainable.

Re:The Show Horse and the Work Horse by Qworg on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @10:42PM (#20512009)
I wish we could get some numbers on this, as I've lived in the same spread of places as you and I agree with the GP. I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

The sustainable rural community is exceedingly rare - most are propped up by ag subsidies and state aid. For much of the central part of America, there's no housing benefit or tourism to speak of, just resources (corn/soy in general, maybe livestock).

Re:The Show Horse and the Work Horse by jgon on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @04:18PM (#20509858)
Ok so the parent says that when small towns have a library, it's not because they are run in a more enlightened fashion than revenue guzzling big cities, but because these small towns are subsidized by the economic contributions of said big cities, either on a state or country level.

You then counter by saying that's wrong and actually small towns have a small library that has a crappy selection but they can get you any book you want if you can wait.

Pop quiz hotshot: Where do you think there is enough built up infrastructure, wealth, and surplus labor capacity to have a large centralized store of books and to organize and distribute said books?

Probably just another small town, am I right?

Re:The Show Horse and the Work Horse by dang on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @04:48PM (#20510064)
Please don't argue in the flamewar style on HN. We're hoping for a bit better than that here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:The Show Horse and the Work Horse by lazyasciiart on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @12:34PM (#20508018)
A lot of them don't, though. Libraries are often funded by the county, not the city, which can help the tiny towns with a library, but there are plenty of tiny rural towns that don't have one. Like everything else, they need funding to survive. Here's an example where the county stopped funding them so the cities have stepped up with taxes and donations: https://expo.oregonlive.com/news/erry-2018/06/e72ef198469825...
Re:The Show Horse and the Work Horse by madhadron on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @12:58PM (#20508221)
The problem is how they are laid out. Most cities in the US aren't dense enough for their tax revenue to pay for their infrastructure.
Re:The Show Horse and the Work Horse by vkou on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @01:51PM (#20508696)
City incentives are very directly driven by the people who live there. Municipal elections, and city council meetings, are the closest thing to direct democracy that you'll probably experience in your life.

The problem with direct democracy is that the people who have the most time to waste (or the most money at stake) on playing politics are the ones who show up. It's also why your HOA is probably governed by a hand-picked selection of devils from the Fifth Circle of Hell.

Re:The Show Horse and the Work Horse by lonelappde on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @02:54PM (#20509196)
Why are you blaming cities for a straw man wholly invented by an HN poster?
Re:The Show Horse and the Work Horse by cortesoft on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @02:21PM (#20508942)
You mean tax revenue that is spent to benefit the people who live there?
Re:The Show Horse and the Work Horse by lacampbell on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @08:02PM (#20511279)
Basically the wealthier folks don’t like the aesthetics of these things

Isn't TFA a wealthy guy raving about how great the flea market is? Clearly a lot of wealthy folk do like the aesthetics.

Re:The Show Horse and the Work Horse by enraged_camel on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @10:56PM (#20512063)
How does it go from "the article is about a wealthy guy who likes it" to "clearly a lot of wealthy folks do like it"?