News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Click farms: a shadowy internet industry is booming in China by dmix on Monday July 22, 2019 @12:34AM (#20495352)
You had me until the part you suggested there was some subset of the upper class conspiring to keep an underclass of poor people... in order to make/keep themselves rich?Wouldn't rich people get much richer if there was more economically healthy middle class people buying their products and real estate or w/e they are making money off of?

What could they possibly gain from ruining the economy and keeping others poor. This seems to be based on a very poor understanding of how economics works, or the idea that there are secret nation-wide power systems plotting evil things like a rich villain in a Disney movie.

Re:Click farms: a shadowy internet industry is booming in China by EnFinlay on Monday July 22, 2019 @01:16AM (#20495481)
I don't think you need a conspiracy to get to a place where in aggregate the decisions of people in control create or perpetuate a poor underclass.

Just like some companies make decisions for the benefit of the next quarter, rather than the next 5 years. If you are able to make a decision that increases near term metrics, at the expense of some other metric you aren't even paying attention to (like making poor people poorer) I can see that happening independently thousands of times a day.

Take payday loans, more commonly used by people with a lower socio-economic standing. They aren't there to create an underclass, they are there to provide a service (loans) at a cost that matches the risk (ignoring the conversation about the cost not matching the risk due to predatory loans). But if decisions are made to increase profit from payday loans, a natural consequence is that the underclass is going to be made more of an underclass.

This is just one example, and it's clearly got some issues. I have no problem imagining many other decisions that will help create an underclass. Maybe the impact is 2 or 5 steps removed, but each one makes a difference, and leads to in aggregate "the rich work to keep the poor, poor".

But what do I know. I'm a developer who took one econ course.

Re:Click farms: a shadowy internet industry is booming in China by TheOtherHobbes on Monday July 22, 2019 @02:49AM (#20495821)
The extremely rich do in fact conspire to keep wages low and economic security precarious, for both political and economic reasons.

There's plenty of historical evidence for this. For example: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2007/aug/28/commen...

The counterargument is that the massive increases in wealth inequality since the 50s - a time when the average single wage earner could afford a relatively secure lifestyle - "just happened", which is obviously rather implausible.

Re:Click farms: a shadowy internet industry is booming in China by arethuza on Monday July 22, 2019 @04:42AM (#20496279)
"There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war, and we're winning."

Warren Buffet

Re:Click farms: a shadowy internet industry is booming in China by 1PlayerOne on Thursday July 25, 2019 @02:10PM (#20527839)
make total sense, I mean who has the time and money to organize for a class war. What is surprising is that a lot of the stupid poor are fighting on side of the rich people who are keeping them poor. Sad!
Re:Click farms: a shadowy internet industry is booming in China by tomp on Monday July 22, 2019 @08:02AM (#20497136)
> The counterargument is that the massive increases in wealth inequality since the 50s - a time when the average single wage earner could afford a relatively secure lifestyle - "just happened", which is obviously rather implausible.

It's not that implausible. It's the effect of technology - not just automation / computers (only since 90s or something) but also before, we had information technology - ever since the telegraph was invented. In simple terms, it enables ever-increasing scale of human cooperation, bigger countries, bigger companies etc. so the "winners" (smartest, most experienced, most educated, most corrupt, most sociopathic, most networked, or simply those with a better starting point) win ever more, at a bigger scale.

Re:Click farms: a shadowy internet industry is booming in China by kevin_thibedeau on Monday July 22, 2019 @08:14PM (#20503412)
It couldn't be tax cuts, low interest rates, or forcing the proles to capitalize the market with their 401Ks.
Re:Click farms: a shadowy internet industry is booming in China by vpears87 on Monday July 22, 2019 @01:10AM (#20495457)
Wealth is relative to others in society. If the pie grows, I maybe better off in absolute dollars. But if the percentage of the pie I control decreases, I am relatively poorer. Comparing how much wealthier/happier/successful/beautiful I am to my previous self is niether as satisfying nor as real as comparing to those immediately around me.

I also wouldn't think a conspiracy is necessary. Just lobby to write tax, tariff, and property laws out in the open that benefit one class of people/industry more than another.

Re:Click farms: a shadowy internet industry is booming in China by tomp on Monday July 22, 2019 @08:13AM (#20497222)
That is a self-defeatist view that encourages and amplifies the "hate the rich" sentiments in the society.

1 of 5 children of John D Rockefeller (richest man in history) died at 13 months. In the past 130 years, child mortality has decreased massively in the developed world. If that's not "real" or "satisfying" and the only achievement that truly fulfils you is beating other people, that's a fairly sad life to live.

Re:Click farms: a shadowy internet industry is booming in China by natrik on Monday July 22, 2019 @01:13PM (#20500090)
I believe that's what humanity should strive for, but looking at a labourer making $5 a day, it would be easier for him to 'hate the rich' neighbour who makes $10 a day and can afford an Air Conditioner than appreciate the fact that he is well off compared to his grandfather or people in neighbouring villages making $1 a day in terms of health, etc.

Also the experiment of being given the choice of either getting nothing or getting $X and giving their worst enemy 2*$X. Small groups often compete against each other, "keeping up with the Joneses", and while it is a sort of hedonistic treadmill, it's an easy way to gain satiety.

Re:Click farms: a shadowy internet industry is booming in China by cbzbc on Monday July 22, 2019 @01:07AM (#20495448)
I think this is true in agggregate and over the longer term - but can run into collective action problems where the narrow interest of some is to get richer quick or who can perversely help themselves in the short term by ruining others.

Equally there’s the possibility of some of the rich not really understanding this or not buying into this philosophy- look at some of the countries with increasing inequality and a disappearing middle class and you’ll always find some lobbying against spending money on services - including things like education which serve as an economic common good and which drive the economy over the long term.

Re:Click farms: a shadowy internet industry is booming in China by wpietri on Monday July 22, 2019 @12:23PM (#20499528)
There are two ways people measure wealth: absolute and relative. You can also score it individually or societally.

If rich people are trying to maximize absolute societal wealth, you'd be right.

However, if they're trying to maximize absolute individual wealth, then they have plenty of incentive to exploit people. Labor history is full of this. If my workers aren't my customers and the choice is between putting a dollar in my pocket or a dollar in theirs, then a wealth-maximizer is going to take the dollar every time. Does that mean less global wealth? Very often. Does an individual absolute wealth maximizer care? Not at all.

People, though, are primates. Dominance hierarchies are part of our evolutionary history. We don't just care about absolute wealth. We care about social status. For many, power is its own end. Power and its signifiers. E.g., positional goods are hugely appealing to some people. (As a great historical example, consider the Shakespeare-style lace ruff collar. It was the height of fashion when it was handmade. As soon as machine-made lace became possible, they went out of fashion because they no longer reliably indicated wealth.) For these people, what matters is individual relative wealth.

For some people, yes, the exact desired outcome is them being on top and everybody else well down below. Does that mean they are less absolutely wealthy? Sure. Do they care? No. For evidence, just look at the historically enormous number of kings, dukes, warlords, etc, etc. Most of the world for most of history has been run with approaches that are miles off "greatest (economic) good for the greatest number". Conspiracy is entirely unnecessary to explain that, just individuals seeking social dominance by any means that come to hand.

Re:Click farms: a shadowy internet industry is booming in China by bagacrap on Monday July 22, 2019 @12:38AM (#20495365)
If everyone was rich, how much do you think you'd have to pay your lawn guy?
Re:Click farms: a shadowy internet industry is booming in China by rfrey on Monday July 22, 2019 @01:45AM (#20495587)
Maybe enough that you’d have to mow your own damn lawn.

Sign me up.

Re:Click farms: a shadowy internet industry is booming in China by mruts on Monday July 22, 2019 @06:59AM (#20496847)
Maybe you want to make your own clothes as well?
Re:Click farms: a shadowy internet industry is booming in China by throwaway2048 on Monday July 22, 2019 @08:24AM (#20497300)
Are you suggesting that people should be kept poor so you can get cheap clothes?
Re:Click farms: a shadowy internet industry is booming in China by arbitrary_name on Monday July 22, 2019 @10:45AM (#20498439)
Hilarious, because that is is some ways an effective description of capitalism working as intended.
Re:Click farms: a shadowy internet industry is booming in China by FluffyKitty on Monday July 22, 2019 @12:44AM (#20495386)
I believe the usual answer to this is that you need a certain percentage of working poor to do the types of menial tasks we haven't been able to automate yet. If they could make more money elsewhere who would do those jobs? If those jobs suddenly paid more, than the price of food would go up and then we would have other problems. I think a key example is the current shortage of farm hands in California [1]. It's causing the price of some produce to go up, and also leading to some wasted crops.

Now, I'm not arguing that it _should_ or has to be this way. I'm just highlighting the usual arguments made when discussing why the rich may conspire to keep some people poor.

[1] https://www.npr.org/2018/05/03/607996811/worker-shortage-hur...

Re:Click farms: a shadowy internet industry is booming in China by arbitrary_name on Monday July 22, 2019 @10:43AM (#20498414)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Labourers_1351

Parliament and nobility literally got together to a) ban unionisation b) fix wages at an unfairly low level c) punish anyone who refused to work at the wages that were fixed below market d) refused to work for an employer who treated him unfairly.

And that cycle has repeated itself all the way through to the 21st Century (Bay View Massacre, etc)

IF you don't think the wealthy actively work to suppress the working classes indirectly or directly, you are truly naive.

Re:Click farms: a shadowy internet industry is booming in China by dmix on Monday July 22, 2019 @07:50PM (#20503324)
[citation from this century needed]
Re:Click farms: a shadowy internet industry is booming in China by C1sc0cat on Monday July 22, 2019 @05:40AM (#20496499)
And the leadership in china is terrified of the now quite large middle class losing out in an economic down turn - they don't want to end up hanging from the lampposts.

Remember revolutions ae carried out by the middle class.