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Re:Living without the modern browser by malvosenior on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @10:33AM (#20402314)
Single-page apps became a thing because of lack of development resources to build native apps or properly engineer server side solutions (as well as a business desire to centralize and lock down the product so people have to experience ads, pay subscriptions...). It has nothing to do with creating a user friendly experience. 100% of the time a user would benefit from a native app or properly engineered server-side rendered web page over a SPA.
Re:Living without the modern browser by RussianCow on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @12:13PM (#20403354)
> It has nothing to do with creating a user friendly experience.

This is absolutely not true. Think about any kind of dynamic dashboard or data management platform. Having full page reloads for any minor change to filters, etc, is simply an unacceptable UX. But it has to be web-based because you need to be able to access it from any device, anywhere, without installing an app.

Plus, on a personal level, there are many services for which I will never install a native app—because I don't use it often, or because the native app provides no added benefit, or for one of a hundred other reasons. Those services don't get my business if they don't have a web app.

Re:Living without the modern browser by dredmorbius on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @02:32PM (#20404887)
That is a significant, but limited-use, case.

Theere's no reason a static contnt page must require JS Simply to render text, with a blank page as fallback.

Better ways of addressing the dashboaard example might be worth considering.

Too: bullshit dashboards with JS-based fakery;

https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/8/13571216/new-york-times-e...

Re:Living without the modern browser by RussianCow on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @05:35PM (#20406826)
Limited? That describes about half the applications I've built in my career!

In all seriousness, there is a big difference between static content pages and full-blown applications; the cost to make the latter work properly without JS enabled is almost never worth it. But the same is true even for some static pages; for instance, I would never expect that NY times election forecast page to work without JavaScript, and don't see any reason that it should. (The "JS-based fakery" is pretty irrelevant to the discussion, IMO.)

Re:Living without the modern browser by dredmorbius on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @09:24PM (#20408313)
What fraction of all HTML pageloads?

And: Sampling bias. A simple static page shouldn't require development. Hence, anyone doing web dev will have experience skewed strongly to more complex designs.

How would you describe the basic underlying structure and mechanics of a typical app you've built?

Re:Living without the modern browser by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @11:10AM (#20402690)
> 100% of the time a user would benefit from a native app

I strongly prefer single-page web apps over native apps. Web apps are constrained by my browser. Native apps get a lot more trust.

Re:Living without the modern browser by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @01:44PM (#20404379)
That's a problem we should have fixed on the platform side long ago, but didn't. Now we're stuck with the garbage fire of the modern web. That doesn't make it better.
Re:Living without the modern browser by hombre_fatal on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @11:33AM (#20402934)
I have uBlock Origin on my browser. I can even change the font-size on a web page if I need to. A native app can be doing anything it wants without my knowledge, and I can't even change the font-size.

Native apps have a performance benefit at the expense of everything we take for granted on the web, like being able to open up a developer console and inspect it.

For example, I noticed that the top language translation app on the Mac App Store incurs a Google Analytics request for every keystroke. And since there's no easy network tab I can open on any app, I only found it out because I was curious how it worked and mitm'd it with a proxy. And I couldn't just toss uBlock Origin at it to de-trackify it like I can any web app.

Doesn't seem like a 100% epic win for users to me. In fact, the only upside I can even think of is that it probably uses less RAM than a Chrome tab opened to Google Translate. Let's slow down and acknowledge the trade-offs before we go all-in on HN memes like native app superiority.

Re:Living without the modern browser by syntheticcdo on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @11:12AM (#20402711)
> 100% of the time

Nothing in software engineering is absolute. And even if something were to be 100% the correct solution one day, the next it could change.

Re:Living without the modern browser by ScottFree on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @11:31AM (#20402917)
I agree, but there is one problem: most people would rather use an SPA than have to download an app and have to keep it up to date themselves.

I wonder if there's a market for an alternative "browser" that loads "native" code (or as close as practically possible) and runs it in a sandbox.

Re:Living without the modern browser by mftrhu on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @06:50PM (#20407404)
> I wonder if there's a market for an alternative "browser" that loads "native" code (or as close as practically possible) and runs it in a sandbox.

This is probably not what you had in mind, and I'm not sure how good it would be at sandboxing, but REBOL Reblets imho come close to this <http://www.rebol.com/reblets.html>

Re:Living without the modern browser by greggirwin on Monday July 15, 2019 @11:03PM (#20447166)
The question is what "browser" means. If viewing data connected by hyperlinks is the goal, that's pretty easy. Rebol's approach to X-Net (Executable Internet) apps is very different, with the goal of being a way to share both data and active content. You can do both, the web we know just wasn't designed for that.
Re:Living without the modern browser by eitland on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @12:13PM (#20403353)
> I wonder if there's a market for an alternative "browser" that loads "native" code (or as close as practically possible) and runs it in a sandbox.

Electron comes close, but many don’t like it at all. (I have somewhat mixed experiences, I love VS Code but I’m not too fond of Slack.)

Re:Living without the modern browser by ScottFree on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @12:21PM (#20403419)
Electron isn't native in any sense of the word. I meant something more like OS-specific binary executables that get loaded and executed in a sandbox.

Mike Acton once said something about having created a browser plugin his team used that loaded and ran binary exe tools on demand, but that it was also wildly insecure. At least I think he said something like that. My memory could be wrong about that.

Re:Living without the modern browser by icedchai on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @07:39PM (#20407719)
We had this 20 years ago with Java (not native obviously) and ActiveX (Windows x86 only.)
Re:Living without the modern browser by favorited on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @03:26PM (#20405514)
> most people would rather use an SPA than have to download an app and have to keep it up to date themselves

Citation?

Re:Living without the modern browser by ScottFree on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @06:20PM (#20407205)
> Citation?

No.

Re:Living without the modern browser by hn_throwaway_99 on Friday July 12, 2019 @09:27AM (#20420495)
Hah, you mean Java applets? Everything old is new again.
Re:Living without the modern browser by ScottFree on Friday July 12, 2019 @09:36AM (#20420569)
I meant something more like OS-specific binary executables that get loaded and executed in a sandbox.