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Re:FreeBSD – A lesson in poor defaults by kev009 on Friday July 05, 2019 @03:14PM (#20365021)
There are kernels of truth in this document that circle around a politics/bureaucracy issue in FreeBSD that has existed forever. But the overall motif about security is laughable diatribes of a typical OpenBSD fan that understands little about kernel work while flailing around about how secure their pet uniprocessor operating system is.. yes, uniprocessor. It is trivial to DoS an OpenBSD machine accidentally on any kind of modern hardware because the locking model is state of the art circa 1980. Security! The only real facepalm this document describes accurately is that FreeBSD still bundles sendmail. The rest of this is basically a slanted view of things that don't matter when running a high scale internet service with FreeBSD -- I know because I did so.
Re:FreeBSD – A lesson in poor defaults by smittywerben on Saturday July 06, 2019 @06:54PM (#20372526)
> The only real facepalm this document describes accurately is that FreeBSD still bundles sendmail.

I installed FreeBSD last night, you can just tick/untick these options during the install which addresses most of the article.

[ ] enable sendmail

[ ] enable sshd

[ ] enable ntp

[x] encrypt swap

Re:FreeBSD – A lesson in poor defaults by uponcoffee on Friday July 05, 2019 @03:34PM (#20365195)
Can you detail how the views presented provided are 'slanted' and 'don't matter'?
Re:FreeBSD – A lesson in poor defaults by _kp6z on Friday July 05, 2019 @03:45PM (#20365267)
Sure, say you configure a Linux, OpenBSD, and FreeBSD machine to provide some useful service. A "stack" as they call it these days. None of these OSes are going to have a large attack surface outside that "stack", and that is the primary liability in running an internet service. There are relatively rare occurrences like the TCP SACK bug that affected Linux and Netflix' non-default FreeBSD RACK TCP stack. Every UNIX-like written in C without formal verification is subject to incidents like that from time to time. Every other security concern is addressed in an OS-agnostic fashion with failure domains, limits of scope/networking, access controls, monitoring, and operations procedures.

Now what Linux, and to a lesser degree FreeBSD, can do is survive real world usage at scale. OpenBSD cannot. It would fall over or require magnitude more machine count to do the same workloads that people use Linux and FreeBSD to run. So all the exploit mitigation diatribe and "great defaults" and pet projects are cute but funny when you try and throw shade onto others with them. As I said, there are some kernels of truth that pertain less about security and more about overall health in FreeBSD this doc accidentally hits on, but running some hobby software like opensmtpd on openbsd isn't going to save the world from real cybersecurity issues.

Re:FreeBSD – A lesson in poor defaults by Cyberdog on Friday July 05, 2019 @08:00PM (#20366835)
Among those "cute pet projects" are OpenSSH, LibreSSL, OpenNTPD, and PF. The internet at large, and even FreeBSD itself, would be all the poorer for not having these projects available.

As someone who has run web servers with both FreeBSD and OpenBSD, I think some of your criticism in this thread is valid, but you really crossed the line into blatant fanboyism with that one at the least.

Re:FreeBSD – A lesson in poor defaults by pushpop on Sunday July 07, 2019 @03:05AM (#20373917)
Only really OpenSSH from your list applies though.

LibreSSL isn’t really in widespread usage outside of OpenBSD and has still been vulnerable to some of recent the OpenSSL exploits.

OpenNTPD is more widely used but lots of people still go for other alternatives and frankly I’m not convinced OpenNTPD offers anything significant over the competition anyway.

pf is barely used outside of OpenBSD and frankly why should it be when Linux has iptables (which does the job well) and FreeBSD has ipfw (which also does the job well). pf is also a decent firewall but it’s also a crowded market with lots of really decent alternatives written by their respective platform hosts.

I do actually quite like OpenBSD though. But outside of OpenSSH, OpenBSD is slowly becoming less relevant to the wider industry as other platforms catch up on security and even over take in terms of enterprise features.

Re:FreeBSD – A lesson in poor defaults by aquabeagle on Sunday July 07, 2019 @08:43AM (#20374818)
pf is shipped on macOS and iOS as well.
Re:FreeBSD – A lesson in poor defaults by howard941 on Friday July 05, 2019 @03:44PM (#20365264)
Yet he never gets around to ditching FreeBSD. The guy's a fan. I read it as a qualified endorsement.
Re:FreeBSD – A lesson in poor defaults by snazz on Friday July 05, 2019 @03:49PM (#20365294)
Could you elaborate on the issues with multiprocessing on OpenBSD? I haven’t had any difficulties running multiple Firefox processes across multiple cores on my machine. How have you DoS’ed it?
Re:FreeBSD – A lesson in poor defaults by _kp6z on Friday July 05, 2019 @03:55PM (#20365341)
Yes, run https://github.com/antonblanchard/will-it-scale on operating systems with hilarious grandstanders like OpenBSD and Illumos, then run it on Linux and compare the results. Run a highly parallel make on a modern server and tell me which OS remains usable for other work. OpenBSD runs acceptably on 2-4 core laptops with HT disabled because a desktop workload doesn't typically invoke a lot of the kernel implementation during steady state, but you can do it there with a moderate disk and network load. That said, syscalls are more expensive in OpenBSD than contemporary operating systems so even as a uniprocessor OS it is funny.
Re:FreeBSD – A lesson in poor defaults by snazz on Friday July 05, 2019 @04:01PM (#20365389)
Fair points. I’ll wager that most users are willing to accept the trade-offs in favor of security, given that it likely won’t affect most day-to-day usage.

(Also, I’m missing what’s so “funny” and “hilarious” about it.)

Re:FreeBSD – A lesson in poor defaults by kev009 on Friday July 05, 2019 @04:08PM (#20365442)
I use OpenBSD for fun on a couple systems and it is a cute OS, there are things to love about it. But the grandstanding is funny.
Re:FreeBSD – A lesson in poor defaults by bitminer on Saturday July 06, 2019 @12:24PM (#20370389)
Will-it-scale has a dependency on hwloc which is not supported on OpenBSD.

Do you have a better synthetic benchmark to suggest?

And "speed" does depend on expectations. Compute tasks should be approximately equivalent, right? And os-limited tasks with many syscalls less so. You don't specifically state your expectations. Just that you are disappointed.

Re:FreeBSD – A lesson in poor defaults by kev009 on Sunday July 07, 2019 @04:18PM (#20377549)
This is really the benchmark you want. There are only a dozen lines to patch. AFAICT OpenBSD neither has a cpuset(3) like API nor any intention of growing one, so you can just delete all the affinity code.
Re:FreeBSD – A lesson in poor defaults by davesmith1983 on Saturday July 06, 2019 @12:08AM (#20367757)
I don't think anyone that uses OpenBSD will claim that it is fast.
Re:FreeBSD – A lesson in poor defaults by SwellJoe on Friday July 05, 2019 @03:17PM (#20365055)
It barely mentions OpenBSD, though?
Re:FreeBSD – A lesson in poor defaults by kev009 on Friday July 05, 2019 @03:29PM (#20365146)
It does, the whole thing is a thinly veiled OpenBSD uber alles rant. The author's twitter bio states "i'm a weeb / dj / photographer that likes openbsd" -- The references in the doc to LibreSSL, OpenSSH purity, OpenSMTPD, pf "unmaintained", OpenNTPD are codewords for "OpenBSD is better than FreeBSD".
Re:FreeBSD – A lesson in poor defaults by verytrivial on Friday July 05, 2019 @04:44PM (#20365736)
It's the topic that matters, no? When talking about BSD security, comparisons to how a security-focused BSD does it seems fair to me. OpenBSD is indeed "better" than FreeBSD when discussing security defaults. Not features or performance, security. I felt the theme was also whether FreeBSD users were aware of the situation, and whether they were able to meaningfully consent to it because they're defaults after all.
Re:FreeBSD – A lesson in poor defaults by kev009 on Friday July 05, 2019 @05:11PM (#20365926)
I don't think I can agree scientifically. OpenBSD developers do subjectively seem to think more holistically about security, and having less features lowers the total number but not the ratio and in practice it doesn't seem to have what I would consider a statistical magnitude difference in the type and ratio of incidents that plague C Unix-likes. In the article the author links to one of Ilja van Sprundel's excellent talks; the takeaway is basically that more eyes actually work for security and you could therefore infer Linux is a magnitude more secure than BSD.

I've been quite negative in this thread because the overall debate on these topics is pretty frivolous. We already have the tools at our disposal to do magnitude greater secure software and splitting hairs over which BSD has better defaults is missing the forest for the trees.

Re:FreeBSD – A lesson in poor defaults by ksec on Friday July 05, 2019 @06:51PM (#20366514)
>incidents that plague C Unix-likes

Do you have a specific language in mind that offers improvement? Or am I reading too much into the sentence?

>We already have the tools at our disposal to do magnitude greater secure software

Mind sharing more details on the tools? Specifically with respect to System / OS Level programming.

Re:FreeBSD – A lesson in poor defaults by kev009 on Friday July 05, 2019 @09:29PM (#20367161)
I'm not banking on any language shift at the moment but could see a plausible case in the past for Ada and maybe now Rust after some more years of maturity both down to the metal. But both of these suffer from some awkwardness around the toolchain for integration into a traditional BSD right now, at least Rust may overcome that in time.

syskaller is in use by the major BSDs and stricter compilers and other static analysis tools have been a far bigger impact IMHO than the OpenBSD style mitigations. I would like to actually see some kind of case studies where OpenBSD mitigations have protected a user where they'd have been let down by say Linux or FreeBSD or OpenBSD without them.

I think a less snake oil approach to security is done by the seL4 folks, the difference in approach makes the *nix security mitigation people somewhat cringe worthy.

Re:FreeBSD – A lesson in poor defaults by tatersolid on Friday July 05, 2019 @09:19PM (#20367123)
>Do you have a specific language in mind that offers improvement?

Any language with memory and type safety should comprise as much as possible of the whole system. See the Singularity OS from Microsoft Research, or whatever that Rust OS project is called.

Almost all the major, nicknamed, headline-grabbing RCE bugs in the last two decades are memory or type safety issues in C or C++ code.

Every C or C++ developer claims safe code is possible or even easy in their favorite language, but history has proven them very wrong.

Re:FreeBSD – A lesson in poor defaults by SwellJoe on Friday July 05, 2019 @03:39PM (#20365229)
The article mentions OpenBSD 4 times (vs Linux 2, Windows 2), in all cases directly comparing a default or feature in OpenBSD to the same default or feature in FreeBSD. Whether the author is an OpenBSD fan or not, I didn't come away with the feeling that OpenBSD was the suggested solution to the problem.

I found it interesting, anyway, but didn't come away with any inclination to use OpenBSD on my next deployment.

Re:FreeBSD – A lesson in poor defaults by c256 on Saturday July 06, 2019 @10:58AM (#20369978)
As someone who hasn’t cared especially much about any *BSD since moving on from NetBSD, I can’t help but notice that a) your bio here calls out FreeBSD, and b) your posts here seem way more rant-like than anything in the post or the comment thread.

Maybe - and I'm only saying this because I care - there are a lot of decaffeinated brands on the market that are just as tasty as the real thing.

Re:FreeBSD – A lesson in poor defaults by _kp6z on Sunday July 07, 2019 @10:10PM (#20379404)
Heh except if you actually read the comments I present Linux as the high water mark twice for security and stability.

Maybe - and I'm only saying this because I care - you should consider through hiking and come back to the discussion when you are less easily offended by the facts at hand into low grade trolling and have requisite attention span and reading comprehension to participate meaningfully in the conversation.

Re:FreeBSD – A lesson in poor defaults by andoriyu on Friday July 05, 2019 @05:31PM (#20366050)
pf is still single threaded in both OS, right?