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Re:Electric cars 'will not solve transport problem,' report ... by quantummkv on Friday July 05, 2019 @02:40AM (#20360339)
This is a very weird article. Isn't the main point of electric cars is to reduce carbon emissions? I don't remember Elon Musk saying that his cars would solve the problem of Urban Sprawl, traffic jams, or parking space?

The headline feels like pure clickbait.

Re:Electric cars 'will not solve transport problem,' report ... by eemil on Friday July 05, 2019 @04:07AM (#20360723)
Though I'm a big proponent of pure electric vehicles, we should be acknowledging that they're still a large source of carbon emissions from manufacturing and in some cases electricity used. The most desirable option would be to move away from individually owned automobiles altogether.

E-bikes are the way to go. They fill the gap between bike-able distances and those requiring alternate propulsion for many people. And depending on your diet, they're in some cases more environmentally friendly than normal bicycles per distance traveled. That doesn't even matter, since both are an order of magnitude better than the automobile.

It's crazy that we're spending thousands to subsidize electric vehicles and mostly ignoring e-bikes.

Re:Electric cars 'will not solve transport problem,' report ... by jbob2000 on Friday July 05, 2019 @08:42AM (#20362074)
Carbon emission from vehicle manufacturing is localized to the area they are manufactured in. The benefits of electric vehicles is that you don't have cities and suburbs full of smog from combustion engines.

You must live in a warm climate - these are the only people who suggest bikes as a replacement for vehicles. Riding a bike in the winter is really difficult. It's not impossible, it's just so much of a challenge that it's not even worth entertaining as an idea - just drive a car with a roof and heater.

Re:Electric cars 'will not solve transport problem,' report ... by nwah1 on Friday July 05, 2019 @04:16AM (#20360758)
I loathe car culture, but bicycles are very dangerous compared to cars, and e-bikes moreso. Motorcycles are approximately 30 times more dangerous than cars, and bicycles about 15 times more dangerous. Goes to figure that e-bikes would be somewhere between those two.

Plus, they are not usable in many weather conditions.

Re:Electric cars 'will not solve transport problem,' report ... by harg on Friday July 05, 2019 @04:30AM (#20360813)
That's simply not true. Cycling in many European countries is no more dangerous than being an occupant in a motor vehicle and a significant proportion of cyclist injuries and deaths are caused by motor vehicles.

Proper cycling and walking infrastructure combined with a reduction of car usage in cities makes cycling an extremely safe activity. In addition the extra health benefits from physical exercise more than offsets any increase in risk from a collision at a societal level.

As for cyling not being usable in many weather conditions - perhaps in extreme winters, but in London there're very few days in the year, if any, that I can't happily ride the 22km round trip to work and back.

Re:Electric cars 'will not solve transport problem,' report ... by jbob2000 on Friday July 05, 2019 @08:45AM (#20362091)
You don't need to die to injure yourself on a bike. I've hit ruts in the road and scraped my knee and torn pants. I've slipped my foot off the pedal and wacked my shin, cut my hand putting a chain back on the derailer, and nutted myself on the seat by hopping a curb.

Contrast that to the fact that I've never been injured in a car, even though I've been in a few accidents.

Re:Electric cars 'will not solve transport problem,' report ... by kruczek on Friday July 05, 2019 @04:32AM (#20360821)
In case of bicycles, isn't the danger coming mainly from the fact that they are often used on roads alongside cars?
Re:Electric cars 'will not solve transport problem,' report ... by sgift on Friday July 05, 2019 @04:54AM (#20360920)
It is. Cars are by far the biggest danger to all other participants in traffic, including bicycles. There's a reason pedestrians have their own space separated from cars. Bikes have the same requirement, then we get drastically less risk.
Re:Electric cars 'will not solve transport problem,' report ... by antisthenes on Friday July 05, 2019 @04:33AM (#20360830)
Bikes would be much safer after reaching critical mass, where it would make sense to have dedicated infrastructure for them.

As it stands, the current infrastructure is basically hostile at every level.

Re:Electric cars 'will not solve transport problem,' report ... by ginko on Friday July 05, 2019 @04:30AM (#20360811)
Dangerous in what way? It's my understanding that it's mainly cars that are a danger to bicyclists.
Re:Electric cars 'will not solve transport problem,' report ... by nwah1 on Saturday July 06, 2019 @12:03AM (#20367737)
I've injured myself multiple times on bicycles, never as a result of a car, despite traveling a tiny sliver of the distance that I have in a car.

I've, thankfully, never been injured in a car accident.

I realize this is anecdotal, but there's strong reasons to believe bicycles are dangerous all by themselves. Traveling at high velocities with little protection on only two wheels is a recipe for accidents.

I assume velomobiles or recumbent tricycles would be much safer, if one doesn't mind the looks from passerby.

Re:Electric cars 'will not solve transport problem,' report ... by stillworks on Friday July 05, 2019 @03:29AM (#20360539)
I have to agree. The article seems like a popularity peice for the politicians involved therein.

Also the graph comparing motoring costs to public transport costs is questionable.

Personally, we downsized from two car houshold to a single car. Car doing the school, grocery and weekend duty, Tfl for commuting.

The car costs about £30 (fuel) per week hauling up to five people at a time. Tfl costs £51 per week per person. If you mix Tfl + Train then it costs £77 per week per person. (Using the Train also has a noticable effect on my mental health, currently fortunate enough to have access to Tfl without relying on Train, hope that continues)

It's the amount of people that need to move from A to B which is the problem and not how they move from A to B.

If all the people switched to electric cars, it's still ALL the VERY SAME NUMBER of people. Local emissions may go down, but then the energy to charge all those electric vehicles will affect "something somewhere else".

If all the people stopped using cars, switched to bicycles, then it's still ALL THE VERY SAME NUMBER of people getting from A to B maybe at the same rate as they were before the switch. This will help with noise and emissions, but... the traffic will be the same.

In London, being on a bicycle is life threatening. Not saying that motorists and bus drivers are out there to "get 'em", rather there is very little space on the roads. Several times the typical scene is that of a biker being followed by up to ten cars until the cars get an opportunity to overtake. Which happens after several minutes due to lack of space.

Re:Electric cars 'will not solve transport problem,' report ... by louhike on Friday July 05, 2019 @03:52AM (#20360652)
> If all the people stopped using cars, switched to bicycles, then it's still ALL THE VERY SAME NUMBER of people getting from A to B maybe at the same rate as they were before the switch. This will help with noise and emissions, but... the traffic will be the same.

Won't the traffic be better with smaller transport (like bike)?

Re:Electric cars 'will not solve transport problem,' report ... by Theodores on Friday July 05, 2019 @05:18AM (#20361035)
Modern day capitalism and the increasing specialisation of jobs combined with problems in the housing market means that people do extraordinary commutes. If the bus or the bicycle is your transport option then you are not going to be setting off at 6.30 in the morning to drive 100 miles to sit at a desk for 8 hours.

In the 1970's nobody drove 100 miles on a daily basis to get to work although there was a small army of travelling salesmen in 'rep' cars that did put in the miles.

Nowadays those reps are probably flying so nothing has improved on that front.

It is hard to untangle this mess, people have careers, kids at schools and considerable investment in automobiles. Also, when companies merge there can be highly dysfunctional travel arrangements going on as a result.

If it is bicycles all the way then that could mean electric bicycles, which means an effective maximum travel distance of 15 miles or an hour of travel time each way.

A government could unpick and sort the mess out, for instance, in the public sector you might find you have people from city A commuting to work in city B and vice-versa to do similar jobs, e.g. in the NHS or education. A government could look at this and use their weight to pay for people to do a job swap, so pay grades are the same but people are working locally. For instance, we have a secondary school French teacher in city A working in city B, and another in city B working in city A. There could be a straightforward incentive to un-do this travel mismatch, where everyone wins. Under normal circumstances opportunities for the French teacher in city A to get a job in city A might not come along. Same for the counterpart in city B.

This would have knock on effects in the private sector as the main earner in the household might be able to also go for a more local job at a lower pay rate with benefits in getting two hours of their life back every day.

The bicycle definitely can be part of this future, if the government could get a sizeable quantity of public sector workers to have local jobs part of the package could include electric bicycles.

Re:Electric cars 'will not solve transport problem,' report ... by mikekchar on Friday July 05, 2019 @04:05AM (#20360719)
> In London, being on a bicycle is life threatening.

Not really disagreeing per se, but I think it's worth taking a look at the numbers. I got them from Wikipedia [1]. The lastest numbers they have are from 2017: 721 thousand journeys per day and 10 deaths per year. That's 0.0000038% chance of death per journey (although presumably about 40x that for serious injury, or 0.00015% per journey). While I appreciate that it's scary to ride in traffic, very unlikely to ever be killed on a bicycle in London. Not good as it should be, but over the last 10-20 years you can see that improvements have been made and I hope we'll see more to come in the future.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_in_London#Statistics

Re:Electric cars 'will not solve transport problem,' report ... by stillworks on Friday July 05, 2019 @05:36AM (#20361136)
Objectively speaking, I hear you. The numbers are in your favor.

And full disclosure, I have not yet tried cycling in London.

But from a car drivers perspective, to me it seems that if by any chance, I made a contact with a cyclist even at breaking speed, I would injur the poor soul very badly.

And when I play that back but me being the cyclist... I can't get myself to get on a bike.

Re:Electric cars 'will not solve transport problem,' report ... by mikekchar on Friday July 05, 2019 @06:37AM (#20361427)
I admit that I have done it in some non-busy places around about 2013. It is scary at first, but to be honest it's better than when I was riding in Canada. Drivers are pretty patient in the UK. I rode a fair amount in the countryside when I was there and I was really surprised at how careful drivers are when overtaking (and how patient they seemed to be). City driving is fairly low speed, though, which gives a cyclist an advantage because they have better acceleration. That allows them to get out of trouble most of the time.

Having said that, I don't want to take away from your point that a lot of people will always feel too uncomfortable to ride in city traffic and I don't blame them. It's just that I often hear people complain about the safety of cycling in London and it's actually a pretty safe city to ride in (though it can definitely get better). The previous mayor was notorious for spending money on improving cycling in London and I think the stats bear that out. I left the UK in 2015, so I don't know what the current mayor is doing.

Re:Electric cars 'will not solve transport problem,' report ... by glennpratt on Friday July 05, 2019 @03:44AM (#20360614)
> If all the people stopped using cars, switched to bicycles, then it's still ALL THE VERY SAME NUMBER of people getting from A to B maybe at the same rate as they were before the switch. This will help with noise and emissions, but... the traffic will be the same.

As someone who bike commutes 10 miles in the US, this couldn't possibly be the case for me.

There is almost never a car impeded by my presence. I spend part of my ride in a bike lane and most of the rest on a bike route through neighborhoods that aren't heavily used for car commuting.

Even when there are cars, they quickly have a chance to pass (and inversely in heavy traffic I filter right through them).

Re:Electric cars 'will not solve transport problem,' report ... by stillworks on Friday July 05, 2019 @05:33AM (#20361111)
Space is not at a premium the U.S. There is plenty opportuinity there to start working towards a very efficient transit infrastructure which will allow for Bikes, Cars, Buses and what not.

I have travelled/driven between the west coast and middle of Arizona (and somewhat into Utah) and road infrastructure generally was much much better than what we have here in the U.K.

As a relative/subjective view, consider that on most major roads in London, it will be difficult to place two London buses side-by-side. (try walking between Bank and let's say Baker Street)

In CA, Silicon Valley proper or south of San Jose or going even further into Southern California, most residential streets are large enough to allow parking even big RVs (almost as big as London Buses) adjacent and still leaving space for cars to move about. From what I remember of San Francisco, the main roads were very wide (streets not so much), it was not difficult to manoeuvre a Chevy Suburban, whereas in London you can rent a studio roughly the size of that vehicle.

Re:Electric cars 'will not solve transport problem,' report ... by archi42 on Friday July 05, 2019 @04:37AM (#20360849)
It's nice that that's possible for you, but I'm afraid it is not universally possible for everyone and everycity. E.g. bike access to our university (plus institutes etc.) when coming from the city is via narrow but heavy traffic road (to university, a bunch of suburbs, two autobahns), or an adjacent pedestrian path (with a lot of studends and badly trimmed overgrowth), or through the hills with forests and no direct path.

The solution here would add & maintain bike lanes (or a stand-alone bike road), but for the above example that would mean deforesting and cutting into 2 or 3 km of hillside. And for the duration of that effort, suspending the primary road between the city and {university, one suburb, one autobahn access} which also happens to be the secondary connection to {two additional suburbs, another autobahn access}.

Re:Electric cars 'will not solve transport problem,' report ... by taneq on Friday July 05, 2019 @02:48AM (#20360378)
In other news, solar power will not solve world hunger and satellite TV will do nothing for domestic violence.
Re:Electric cars 'will not solve transport problem,' report ... by dooferlad on Friday July 05, 2019 @02:57AM (#20360419)
Indeed. The writer doesn't even challenge some of the more obvious problems with the comments they have collected e.g. self driving cars causing traffic jams as they look for parking - why would they look? Wouldn't they ask for a space, reserve one based on location, price, charging needs, then drive to it on a route that is less used than ones carrying time sensitive loads (food, people)?
Re:Electric cars 'will not solve transport problem,' report ... by pmontra on Friday July 05, 2019 @03:08AM (#20360464)
Yes, BBC kind of hijacked the report to state the obvious: an electric car is still a car so if we don't want to litter cities with them we should use different means of transportation.

The report also addresses autonomous driving:

> The other great technological change under way on the roads is driverless cars.

> The report warns this dream could also turn sour as car owners may choose to live many miles from their workplace, using their car as a mobile office while sitting in traffic jams they have helped to create.

Re:Electric cars 'will not solve transport problem,' report ... by icebraining on Friday July 05, 2019 @03:54AM (#20360661)
This is not a response to Elon Musk, but to the UK's government, and in particular its report "The Road to Zero" (meaning zero CO2 emissions), which this report claims relies too much on the conversion of individual cars to EV to achieve its goals.
Re:Electric cars 'will not solve transport problem,' report ... by visarga on Friday July 05, 2019 @02:54AM (#20360407)
Also, the problem is ill posed. I don't think road congestion can be solved by making a different car. It's a social problem related to jobs, schools and houses.
Re:Electric cars 'will not solve transport problem,' report ... by maccard on Friday July 05, 2019 @03:31AM (#20360545)
> . It's a social problem related to jobs, schools and houses.

In many places, it's not.cits a lifestyle problem where people value their own perceived convenience without considering any externalities.

I live in a small (500k people) city, where the school you go to depends on what part of town you live in. Each school has probably less than a half mile's radius. Yet despite this, a large number of people still drive their kids to school.

People don't use trains because "they're expensive, and I might need to leave 8 minutes early or later some day", despite not considering the cost of fuel, parking in a city centre for a day, and maintenance of their car. They don't use buses because they're "inconvenient" despite tge fact a months bus pass in my city is cheaper than 2 days parking in the city, and all the major artery routes are served at 5-10 minute intervals during peak hours.

People living in these kinds of situations won't change unless they're forced to

Re:Electric cars 'will not solve transport problem,' report ... by majewsky on Friday July 05, 2019 @04:08AM (#20360729)
> People don't use trains because "they're expensive, and I might need to leave 8 minutes early or later some day"

That's an unfortunate side-effect of trains having timetables. When a train is 5 minutes late, it's really frustrating because a) you don't have any agency, b) you usually cannot see anything related to the reason for the delay, and c) the idle waiting makes the time feel longer.

When a car is stuck in traffic for 30 minutes, it doesn't feel like you're losing 30 minutes. It just feels like a force of nature happening to you, and also it feels shorter than waiting for a train for 30 minutes because you're still engaged in the act of driving. You still have some agency because you have the choice of trying to change to that other lane that always feels like it's moving faster.

Re:Electric cars 'will not solve transport problem,' report ... by viraptor on Friday July 05, 2019 @03:20AM (#20360500)
Buses and trains with good schedules are different cars ;) - while this is definitely a social problem, we can address at least part of it with better public transport.
Re:Electric cars 'will not solve transport problem,' report ... by ginko on Friday July 05, 2019 @03:56AM (#20360671)
I still think the article has merit. If we just make more CO2 efficient cars without also curbing their use we might end up with more CO2 being produced due to Jevons paradox[1].

I especially worry about autonomous cars since, that would make taking long trips by car more convenient.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox

Re:Electric cars 'will not solve transport problem,' report ... by de_watcher on Friday July 05, 2019 @05:20AM (#20361045)
Being in a traffic jam will be more pleasant because of the air quality.
Re:Electric cars 'will not solve transport problem,' report ... by simonCGN on Friday July 05, 2019 @03:28AM (#20360533)
I agree