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Re:The Backbone of VHF Amateur Radio May Be Under Threat by kylehotchkiss on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @12:01PM (#20336413)
I can't help but feel the amateur radio community could have used a rebrand for the internet age. I understand there's a lot of history but it's hard to get young people interested in being _hams_, a word that has not aged well. I got my licence about a decade back and really loved the technical pieces - learning about how radio waves worked, propagation with different bands, the ability to (try) to build your own modem with two radios and an Arduino, but when it came to actually talking to people on the radio... other people just wanted to talk about radios.

It is really fascinating what you can do with 2m band radios. For those times and places where your cell phone won't work, digital modes on the new Icom radios look pretty cool. Being able to hook up a radio to a laptop to send something digitally still seems valuable and relevant! But the community branding could use some modernization to push those use cases.

Re:The Backbone of VHF Amateur Radio May Be Under Threat by hanoz on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @12:43PM (#20336857)
In my opinion one of the best ways of injecting some new life into the community would be to let people take their test online.
Re:The Backbone of VHF Amateur Radio May Be Under Threat by Jach on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @01:23PM (#20337275)
Two better ways: remove the need for a test or license at all, at least at many more frequencies and below energy levels well above current limits (which say you can transmit around 2.4 Ghz for example up to some power license-free). Second is to remove any restrictions on what is transmitted, which lets you have purely digital frequency modulated end-to-end encrypted signals meant for amateur computers to decipher.

But making the test online sounds a lot more feasible a change. I'm just skeptical of its effects. e.g. It wouldn't have made me any likelier to pursue amateur radar fun further.

Re:The Backbone of VHF Amateur Radio May Be Under Threat by tlrobinson on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @02:08PM (#20337768)
As much as I'd love to have more people in amateur radio, and the ability to use encryption, I think both the licensing and prohibition on encryption are fairly critical to keeping things running smoothly.

The test includes lots of useful information such as requirements to transmit your callsign and using minimum power necessary.

The prohibition on encryption is pretty critical to enforce other rules such as only using it for non-commercial purposes. Encryption isn't actually necessary for any of the stated purposes of amateur radio (experimentation, recreation, training, contesting, emergency comms, etc). You can still use any digital mode, including digital signatures, but not encryption of the content.

I might be in favor of creating a class lower than Technician, and allowing taking the test online, though. You should still be assigned a callsign that you are required to transmit.

Re:The Backbone of VHF Amateur Radio May Be Under Threat by jmwilson on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @04:53PM (#20339314)
> Encryption isn't actually necessary for any of the stated purposes of amateur radio (experimentation, recreation, training, contesting, emergency comms, etc)

It is, or will be, needed for experimentation. Wireless security cannot be an afterthought anymore; communication modes and protocols need to be built with security in mind from day 1.

There is one area where encryption is expressly permitted in amateur radio: satellite control, for obvious reasons. The future of amateur radio is not people talking to people over narrowband voice channels; it's going to be machines talking to other machines, and being able to control them. This is going to require encryption, or innovation will shift off the ham bands. And if the ARS is just ragchews, contesting, and doing things that have already been done instead of advancing communication, then there's not much defense when someone like Thales comes in and suggests reallocating bandwidth to something new and enterprising.

Re:The Backbone of VHF Amateur Radio May Be Under Threat by tlrobinson on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @06:34PM (#20340003)
A few points:

Encryption isn't typically part of the physical or data link layers, which are the bread and butter of amateur radio. What you send on top of those isn't really the interesting part of amateur radio, from a technical perspective.

The actual rule prohibits "messages encoded for the purpose of obscuring their meaning" which I think most people interpret to mean digital signatures for authentication and integrity are permitted, just not encrypted payloads.

Many protocols have the ability to switch ciphers, including disabling encryption entirely while still performing authentication and integrity checking.

Re:The Backbone of VHF Amateur Radio May Be Under Threat by Jach on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @02:07AM (#20342006)
A use case I want out of amateur radio regulation is private anonymous communication traceable only via motivated actors using triangulation etc to a physical broadcast point, which may be moving and not always on.

I want this not for commercial or nefarious reasons (though it would be used for such and I don't care) but because I want some attempt at private-by-default in everything, even just experimenting or recreational. The edge cases where I'd want maximum openness, like in emergencies, are rare, so shouldn't be the default. It's not going to happen I know, but it's what it'd take to bring me into it and I presume more competent philosophical aligned people (there's a few in the overall threads) who could use the lessened restrictions for actual societal innovation (positive or negative).

Re:The Backbone of VHF Amateur Radio May Be Under Threat by 18pfsmt on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @03:43PM (#20338720)
My comments are limited to the US because these things are managed differently in different countries.

Given how much the spectrum landscape is changing (i.e. 5G), I think we should rework how strictly we allocate spectrum, especially lower-power/ lower frequency stuff. I should be able to create a broadcast radio station with X mile radius pretty easily. Is X=30mi? I cannot say, but the intense regulations are onerous, and I think the recent decline in local journalism might be reversed by an increase in local broadcast radio.

Re:The Backbone of VHF Amateur Radio May Be Under Threat by WA9ACE on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @12:47PM (#20336892)
Agreed, going to take a proctored test is such a huge barrier to entry.
Re:The Backbone of VHF Amateur Radio May Be Under Threat by bwigfield on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @01:04PM (#20337080)
I think I'm going to disagree with that. Because I had to take the test in person I meet the guys in the local club. Their personal invite to club meeting and lent gear got me on the air quickly. If I just took the test online I would probably have just put my license up on the wall and moved onto something else.

73's KC3SOL

Re:The Backbone of VHF Amateur Radio May Be Under Threat by melling on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @01:10PM (#20337141)
He gave you the answer and you ignored it.

Instead you reverted to the classic: "Let's make taking the test easier for people".

I got my license 2 decades ago and never really use it. How about those modern use cases?

Re:The Backbone of VHF Amateur Radio May Be Under Threat by vageli on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @04:53PM (#20339321)
> I can't help but feel the amateur radio community could have used a rebrand for the internet age. I understand there's a lot of history but it's hard to get young people interested in being _hams_, a word that has not aged well. I got my licence about a decade back and really loved the technical pieces - learning about how radio waves worked, propagation with different bands, the ability to (try) to build your own modem with two radios and an Arduino, but when it came to actually talking to people on the radio... other people just wanted to talk about radios.

> It is really fascinating what you can do with 2m band radios. For those times and places where your cell phone won't work, digital modes on the new Icom radios look pretty cool. Being able to hook up a radio to a laptop to send something digitally still seems valuable and relevant! But the community branding could use some modernization to push those use cases.

Packet radio is awesome. Long distance, communication unmediated by third parties is awesome. Building gateways for sms/email is possible. I pointed an antenna at a satellite in the sky and received data. If I got to touch this stuff as a kid it would have blown my world apart.

There is so much possibility, if people think ham radio is just old white dudes talking about radios they are not digging deeply enough.

Re:The Backbone of VHF Amateur Radio May Be Under Threat by Jach on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @02:30AM (#20342099)
The potential is obvious once you really start to grasp the reality of the electric field and its properties. (A favorite Feynman vid to give laymen a taste: https://youtube.com/watch?v=FjHJ7FmV0M4) I don't see how any worthwhile possibilities can be realized at the amateur level however given just two of the restrictions I pointed out in a sibling thread...
Re:The Backbone of VHF Amateur Radio May Be Under Threat by tlrobinson on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @02:25PM (#20337935)
I think the rebranding is happening slowly.

There are really two amateur radio "communities" (though with a fair amount of overlap): the older "ragchewing" generations that didn't grow up with the Internet, and the newer generations that care more about experimenting with shiny new technology.

As the former generation "retires" and new licensees join it will continue to shift.

There have been a record number of new licenses granted in recent years (though that doesn't necessarily translate to actual engagement in the hobby) http://www.arrl.org/news/another-outstanding-year-for-amateu...

Re:The Backbone of VHF Amateur Radio May Be Under Threat by zippergz on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @12:27PM (#20336683)
I agree. I have my license, but I never really use it. However, I greatly value the things I learned in the process of getting my license. Understanding how RF works is really helpful for making WiFi work better, for example.
Re:The Backbone of VHF Amateur Radio May Be Under Threat by Mediterraneo10 on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @12:24PM (#20336642)
> other people just wanted to talk about radios.

I felt the same disappointment when I got into amateur radio just before the modern internet took off. I loved the idea of talking with people around the world and maybe even practicing some foreign languages, so I immediately set up a station for DXing. All those people from exotic foreign countries just wanted to make a few quick remarks about their radios. No one wanted to exchange any actual culture.

But to be fair, the wording of amateur radio regulations in many countries suggests that hams should not try to have substantial conversations over the airwaves. Also, since amateur radio is hobby dominated by older people, a lot of hams in Eastern Europe still remember the Communist era when contact with foreigners was supposed to be strictly business.

Re:The Backbone of VHF Amateur Radio May Be Under Threat by jpmattia on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @12:45PM (#20336878)
> But to be fair, the wording of amateur radio regulations in many countries suggests that hams should not try to have substantial conversations over the airwaves.

But it's worth noting: A lot of that verbiage dates from the Cold War, and is rooted in the spy communications culture that leftover from WW2. It's pretty doubtful that any intelligence service gives a damn about what goes over the air these days. In fact, it would be a bonus for your adversary's old-fashioned "listening posts", because they could "intercept" the broadcast.

So an ITU update to what is allowed to go out over the air would also be sensible.

Edit: Although you just know encrypted packets would be forbidden, despite the fact that we can easily send encrypted packets via the internet, which requires a great deal more work to "intercept".

Re:The Backbone of VHF Amateur Radio May Be Under Threat by Stratoscope on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @12:52PM (#20336945)
What has worked well for me is to ask questions about non-controversial topics that most people are interested in. A great one is food. I've often told people in other countries (or even here in the US) that I would like to visit their area sometime, and what are some local foods I should try?

This has started some pretty interesting conversations, because who doesn't like food and talking about it? And it shows that I'm interested in their local culture.

Re:The Backbone of VHF Amateur Radio May Be Under Threat by madengr on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @12:30PM (#20336709)
Well at least with SSB and CW you have a short conversation. JT8, etc, have reduced “contacts” to a few bytes.

Don’t get me wrong, pushing the Shannon capacity limit is great, but I’ll wager many stations are not even running QRP for the newer digital modes.

Re:The Backbone of VHF Amateur Radio May Be Under Threat by lawfulcactus on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @12:38PM (#20336795)
>JT8, etc, have reduced "contacts" to a few bytes

I think you mixed up FT8 and JS8 there. :)

FT8 is the (effectively) zero-interaction DX mode. JS8 exactly the opposite-- a weak signal mode based on FT8 tailored for ragchewing.

Re:The Backbone of VHF Amateur Radio May Be Under Threat by madengr on Tuesday July 02, 2019 @12:57PM (#20337010)
Ha ha, I guess the modes in WSJT-X. I know JT65 is one. At least with PSK31 you are typing in real-time. With JT65 it’s fully automated. Ought to only be counted as a contact when it’s below the 2.5 kHz noise bandwidth. When I can hear multiple JT65 signals in SSB audio, that’s totally cheating. Those guys are probably running +10W.