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Re:Boeing falsified records for 787 jet that developed a fue... by Ice_cream_suit on Friday June 28, 2019 @06:55PM (#20309475)
The employees responsible for the falsification should be jailed.
Re:Boeing falsified records for 787 jet that developed a fue... by aaronbrethorst on Friday June 28, 2019 @07:25PM (#20309657)
The executives who created and sustained the culture where this was considered acceptable should too.
Re:Boeing falsified records for 787 jet that developed a fue... by everybodyknows on Saturday June 29, 2019 @12:15AM (#20310785)
I would look higher still: It's the board of directors that hold the CEO's feet to the fire to produce a smooth stream of rising profits. If they could take bad news e.g. revenue shipments will slip while bad designs get reworked, then more CEOs would deliver that bad news. The root of the problem is systemic, and the blame should go all the way up.
Re:Boeing falsified records for 787 jet that developed a fue... by Ice_cream_suit on Saturday June 29, 2019 @05:29AM (#20311646)
It is the shareholders who hold the board of directors responsible.

Shall we jail every shareholder in Boeing?

Re:Boeing falsified records for 787 jet that developed a fue... by crowbahr on Friday June 28, 2019 @08:24PM (#20309971)
They should be jailed for self reporting the cover up of other employees?

Because that's what you're suggesting, and it sounds patently ridiculous.

Re:Boeing falsified records for 787 jet that developed a fue... by NowThenGoodBad on Friday June 28, 2019 @08:35PM (#20310022)
So, you're suggesting that we should let those who perpetuate cultures like falsifying records to continue to exist in industry without punishment when they are directly responsible for the harm that happens?

That sounds patently ridiculous.

The culture comes from the top. It's super easy for them to allow people lower down to take the fall for something they pressured subordinates to do.

Shoot, just look at Wells Fargo last year.

The higher ups said that those lower needed to boost account signups, so, suddenly people found themselves signed up with accounts they had never signed up for.

But we blame those lower for following an order, even if it's an implied order, because they were the ones who did the deed. It was so hard to link Al Capone to murder they had to get him for tax evasion.

He called the shots, but others took the shots.

So, when you say that it's ridiculous to target those execs who are setting the standards which are causing these problems, these deaths, you got some screw loose up there friend, because those execs are getting paid hundreds of thousands to hundreds of millions of dollars, while those doing what they are told so that they can keep their job are just trying to eat and pay rent.

Re:Boeing falsified records for 787 jet that developed a fue... by dnadler on Friday June 28, 2019 @08:51PM (#20310061)
>those who perpetuate cultures

Without any real knowledge of this situation, I'm pretty comfortable saying that anyone reporting this isn't perpetuating the culture. But, let's not jump to conclusions...

Re:Boeing falsified records for 787 jet that developed a fue... by kortilla on Friday June 28, 2019 @10:26PM (#20310414)
Wow, this is even more pathetic than the “I was following orders” excuse. Now it’s “I was breaking the law because I got the vibe that I should”.
Re:Boeing falsified records for 787 jet that developed a fue... by PavlovsCat on Saturday June 29, 2019 @12:09AM (#20310770)
"Anticipatory obedience", or however one would translate it:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorauseilender_Gehorsam

Re:Boeing falsified records for 787 jet that developed a fue... by kortilla on Saturday June 29, 2019 @03:12AM (#20311240)
But even following direct orders is not an excuse to break the law. The notion that people shouldn’t be held liable for breaking the law under even less pressure is insane.
Re:Boeing falsified records for 787 jet that developed a fue... by bad-joke on Friday June 28, 2019 @09:07PM (#20310131)
The executives are rewarded lavishly for owning the company. They should receive equally lavish punishment when that company inflicts damage.
Re:Boeing falsified records for 787 jet that developed a fue... by Ice_cream_suit on Friday June 28, 2019 @07:59PM (#20309861)
Should you be jailed for your employees crimes?
Re:Boeing falsified records for 787 jet that developed a fue... by jacquesm on Friday June 28, 2019 @08:25PM (#20309973)
That's a simple question with a complex answer. The answer is 'it depends'. Yes, there definitely are cases where execs should be jailed for their employees crimes, and others where that definitely should not be the case.

For instance, if an employee of a company embezzles a bunch of money from either a customer or the company itself then the execs should typically not be culpable. But, if the execs themselves were the ones that ordered the employee to do this, either directly or through the 'nudge, nudge, wink, wink' method of communications (and there is corroborating evidence that this indeed happened, for instance the issues not being limited to single employees but being institutionalized) then yes, they should definitely be punished as though they themselves were the ones doing it.

It should not be possible for executives to use employees as a cut-out layer when crimes are committed.

Re:Boeing falsified records for 787 jet that developed a fue... by tempguy9999 on Saturday June 29, 2019 @05:47AM (#20311690)
> But, if the execs themselves were the ones that ordered the employee to do this...

or (and this often seems more likely) if the execs have not clearly instituted reasonably sufficient protocols to prevent X from happening...

They are the buggers abundantly paid for good governance, after all.

Re:Boeing falsified records for 787 jet that developed a fue... by jacquesm on Saturday June 29, 2019 @06:17AM (#20311762)
Sure, but the more likely way in which these things go is: "Do what you have to do to make us pass those emissions tests" and "Get rid of that industrial waste" and so on.

No clear command to do something illegal but the employee is left with two choices: do something illegal or end up not doing what they were told to do.

Culpability is a thing that can be smeared out effectively across the layers of a large organization where each layer only sees the delta between the one above it and the one below it, the people that know the law and the consequences are safely (or so they think) insulated from the hands that commit the crimes and the hands that commit the crimes typically don't know the law.

This situation has - as far as I know - never really been addressed explicitly in the law hence the institutionalization of 'the buck stops at the top'. Even if you don't know and even if you did not order it explicitly you are - and should - still be held responsible. The question at hand is if that should include criminal liability for all cases where the employees break the law and I think there are plenty of cases where employees breaking the law should not lead to culpability of management, for instance, those cases where employees gain an advantage for themselves at the expense of the company, the customers or the society they operate in. But in most other cases where the company gained an advantage the execs should be liable. That alone will get companies to behave like good (immortal) citizens.

Re:Boeing falsified records for 787 jet that developed a fue... by tempguy9999 on Saturday June 29, 2019 @06:42AM (#20311848)
My point is to exactly prevent this level of leeway being given to an employee. The execs must make it clear in writing how to do a significant task. If they do not, they are culpable for the outcome just as if they eg. forged the results themselves.
Re:Boeing falsified records for 787 jet that developed a fue... by jacquesm on Saturday June 29, 2019 @07:17AM (#20311941)
That has a serious problem: you can not possibly see in advance what people are going to do and if there is one thing I've learned from a couple of decades of programming and working with teams no matter how clear you thought your writing was there will always be something or someone that will take the last bit of ambiguity and interpret it in some creative way.

That's why there is such a huge gulf between US law and EU law: in the US, the letter of the law is all that matters, in the EU, where laws are a lot more ambiguously specified it is the spirit of the law that matters. So an EU executive could be found liable because the company violated the spirit of the law whereas a US executive would walk even though both companies would do the exact same thing. But once the letter of the law is violated - especially in so-called white collar crime - there is still no guarantee of a conviction because corporations have very large budgets to protect their execs and to try to find some legal loophole.

I'm (very well possibly because I'm European) more in favor of laws that are interpreted as to the spirit of the law, simply because it makes people reason from some level of goodwill rather than by trying to maximize the take by legal hair splitting.

Re:Boeing falsified records for 787 jet that developed a fue... by 0815test on Saturday June 29, 2019 @07:38AM (#20312013)
> in the US, the letter of the law is all that matters

This is very wrong. In common-law jurisdictions (which the U.S. is broadly-speaking one example of - some exceptions may apply which are not relevant here), judicial precedent is a key factor in interpreting "the letter of the law", which is not the case in continental/civil law. This means that a vaguely-written statute can still provide some meaningful legal certainty in the U.S., where precedent provides some commonly-understood and commonly-developed guidance to what "the spirit of the law" might be; whereas in civil law jurisdictions, overly vague or ambiguous laws can only result in judges and government officials exerting arbitrary power (and in fact this happens routinely!), with not even consistency over time (much less some even more consistent "spirit of the law"!) as a real check and constraint.

Re:Boeing falsified records for 787 jet that developed a fue... by jchw on Friday June 28, 2019 @08:21PM (#20309955)
Higher pay grades equal higher responsibilities. Accountability for an incident cannot ever sit with a single individual in an organization, nor should it sit with no individuals. Why was this allowed to occur? What processes failed? If it’s an endemic issue, getting rid of employees at the bottom won’t prevent future issues and potentially future loss of life.
Re:Boeing falsified records for 787 jet that developed a fue... by sb057 on Friday June 28, 2019 @08:22PM (#20309959)
Yes.