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Re:Ends of the Urth by dmitriid on Saturday June 22, 2019 @05:39AM (#20248792)
Just read "the Book of the New Sun" in its entirety and I can't understand the appeal people find in it.

The author really enjoys telling stories, and is very bad at telling a story. The world is glorious, and he does nothing with it. The protagonist is a nymphomaniac borderline[1] rapist who goes on long monologues about women as nothing more than objects (and many more monologues that are rarely insightful). The protagonist never changes, the story jumps from a chance encounter to a deus ex machina and back through random events of no consequence.

But, as with literature, its very subjective, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[1] Yeah, not even borderline. "Oh, look at this beautiful woman sleeping. I couldn't help but start sex with her".

Re:Ends of the Urth by autarch on Saturday June 22, 2019 @10:31AM (#20249776)
"The protagonist is a nymphomaniac borderline[1] rapist ..."

Yes, Severian is not a particularly good person, but does that make this a bad series of books? I don't think Wolfe is trying to present him as good, which would be hard to swallow. This is written entirely from Severian's viewpoint, not Wolfe's.

In the sequel-ish series, the Long Sun books, the protagonist _is_ a very good person, and he's a marked contrast to Severian.

Re:Ends of the Urth by fmoralesc on Saturday June 22, 2019 @12:21PM (#20250373)
And in the Short Sun books, the protagonist is yet again a different kind of man, oscillating between both extremes.
Re:Ends of the Urth by dmitriid on Sunday June 23, 2019 @03:32AM (#20253771)
> I don't think Wolfe is trying to present him as good, which would be hard to swallow. This is written entirely from Severian's viewpoint, not Wolfe's.

And yet we’re made to swallow the fact that he’s an exceptionally good person, an amazing leader whome people follow with no afterthought, and the Chosen One who brings the era of the New Sun.

Re:Ends of the Urth by Mediterraneo10 on Sunday June 23, 2019 @03:59AM (#20253850)
> And yet we’re made to swallow the fact that he’s an exceptionally good person

Are we? Wolfe has stated in interviews that Severian is not supposed to be seen as a good person, but rather a deeply flawed one.

> an amazing leader whome people follow with no afterthought

Severian only starts to draw a following once he becomes autarch, and then people aren’t following him as much as the office (or the effects of the office). Elsewhere, it is Severian who tags along with various people he meets.

> the Chosen One who brings the era of the New Sun.

Did you go on to read The Urth of the New Sun? I won’t spoil it here for others, but that book does reveal that Severian’s “chosenness” and “saving of the planet” isn’t ultimately all it was cracked up to be.

As for lack of character growth, it is strange that you list Dorcas an example, because IMHO her gradual development over books 1–3 (with the coda in book 4) is a poignant aspect of the work.

And incidentally, novels where a protagonist tours a world full of odd characters, and the author does not particularly develop these characters or even the protagonist, is a well-established literary genre that goes back many centuries (the picaresque).

Re:Ends of the Urth by dmitriid on Tuesday June 25, 2019 @03:11PM (#20277754)
> Are we? Wolfe has stated in interviews that

Doesn't matter what he said in interviews. The third book is full to the brim with with thin hints or outright "we knew you were special, so we were searching for you high and low".

> Severian only starts to draw a following once he becomes autarch

Re-read the entire attack on Baldanders' castle. "The people naturally follow me" and all that.

> Did you go on to read The Urth of the New Sun?

I didn't and after the Book of the New Sun I frankly don't want to touch anything by Wolfe :)

> a well-established literary genre that goes back many centuries (the picaresque).

"picaresque: relating to an episodic style of fiction dealing with the adventures of a rough and dishonest but appealing hero."

The main problem is that Severian is anything but appealing.

Re:Ends of the Urth by Mediterraneo10 on Saturday June 22, 2019 @07:10AM (#20249017)
Wolfe's treatment of women is controversial. However, Severian is about 18 years old, and he grew up in a male-only community, so his perennial interest in women and shagging them is not unbelievable in this protagonist.

As for "events of no consequence", there are no such things in the book. Everything is somehow tied together, which is a large part of the book's appeal.

Re:Ends of the Urth by dmitriid on Sunday June 23, 2019 @03:30AM (#20253768)
> As for "events of no consequence", there are no such things in the book. Everything is somehow tied together

By consequence I mean change and growth in characters. You can throw away every single story, detour, and encounter and nothing will change in the characters’ journey.

Is there a difference between Jonas and the namless boy dead in the mountains? Dorcas and Balanders? Vodalus and witches in the forgotten ruins? None. They come and go with no impact.

Nowhere is this more evident than in the way the books end and continue. Entire parts of the protagonist’s journey are just skipped from one book to the next. Does it have any effect? None.

Re:Ends of the Urth by catacombs on Saturday June 22, 2019 @09:54AM (#20249547)
> Just read "the Book of the New Sun" in its entirety and I can't understand the appeal people find in it. The author really enjoys telling stories, and is very bad at telling a story. The world is glorious, and he does nothing with it. The protagonist is a nymphomaniac borderline[1] rapist who goes on long monologues about women as nothing more than objects (and many more monologues that are rarely insightful). The protagonist never changes, the story jumps from a chance encounter to a deus ex machina and back through random events of no consequence. But, as with literature, its very subjective, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I've been hesitant about reading BOTNS, and this just confirms my suspicions that I should skip it.

Re:Ends of the Urth by soufron on Saturday June 22, 2019 @09:41AM (#20249511)
But even aside of the sexism, the story is completely artificial...
Re:Ends of the Urth by soufron on Saturday June 22, 2019 @09:40AM (#20249508)
Same thing...