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Re:Mazda is purging touchscreens from its vehicles by TheGRS on Monday June 17, 2019 @12:52PM (#20204883)
Are knobs and plastic moldings that expensive though? I'm not sure this is really a driving factor. Touch screens have marketing appeal (at least from the seller's perspective), I have to think having a shiny touch screen on your new Mazda is simply just trying to get more people to purchase a new car and nothing more.
Re:Mazda is purging touchscreens from its vehicles by jwr on Monday June 17, 2019 @02:03PM (#20205711)
> Are knobs and plastic moldings that expensive though?

If you consider the entire cost, yes. Every BOM item has a huge cost associated with it, and it's price only a small fraction.

Consider that for every item you need to:

* secure supply for the next 10 years or so

* organize purchasing and put it into the supply chain

* design assembly instructions, teach workers how to assemble it

* design and implement testing procedures

* design and implement diagnostics to figure out which specific component has failed

* maintain it and keep it available for your service network for the next 10-15 years

* deal with unexpected failure rates and be ready to re-design in case of problems

* also, every knob is actually not one component, because it needs to be connected to something, which implies wires and connectors (the most problematic components in electronics) and multiples all of the above several times.

Look at it this way and suddenly you really want to minimize the number of individual components and replace them all with a single touchscreen. Especially given that you can then deliver crappy software and the market will bear it, because we have been trained to expect and accept crappy software.

But I do agree that the marketing appeal is there, too, although I think some people are waking up.

Re:Mazda is purging touchscreens from its vehicles by elihu on Monday June 17, 2019 @08:37PM (#20208765)
> Especially given that you can then deliver crappy software and the market will bear it, because we have been trained to expect and accept crappy software.

I'd put it differently; I'd say we've been trained to expect anything with (user-visible) software to be crappy, and to accept it because we have no alternative.

Re:Mazda is purging touchscreens from its vehicles by dublin on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @06:50PM (#20219232)
That's especially true for automotive SW and interfaces, which raise dreck to a whole 'nother level. For a whole lot of reasons, I don't expect to ever buy a car much newer than about 2010 for the rest of my life. Avoiding (ob)noxious systems and interfaces is a large part of that reason.
Re:Mazda is purging touchscreens from its vehicles by patrick5415 on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @02:38AM (#20221284)
I’m with you. Im not that old but new cars really have no appeal to me. Will be interesting to see how it goes hanging onto a 2010 for 50 years
Re:Mazda is purging touchscreens from its vehicles by brokenmachine on Thursday June 20, 2019 @01:35AM (#20230190)
Me too.

I enjoy driving a manual ("stick") and distrust auto-braking/lane assist/etc. My car has airbags, ABS and traction control so I'm happy with the safety features.

No way will I buy a car where essential functions are touchscreen operated, or with any phone-home "features".

Re:Mazda is purging touchscreens from its vehicles by giobox on Thursday June 20, 2019 @02:09PM (#20235562)
While I tend to agree that the past decade has seen some arguably unnecessary increases in complexity, the latest safety technology is significantly more advanced than even 10 years ago.

Your list includes "Air Bags, ABS and Traction Control" - this list was fine in the early 90s, but you've missed one of the most life saving innovations in recent modern car history - Electronic/Dynamic Stability Control.

Multiple studies have shown ESC has potential to reduce fatal accidents by a third - this is largely why it was made mandatory on all cars sold in the EU and US since 2011/12. If you own a powerful vehicle, especially a rear wheel drive one, the kind of driver input mess (accidental or intentional) ESC systems can clean up that otherwise has you spinning off the road is pretty amazing.

Re:Mazda is purging touchscreens from its vehicles by brokenmachine on Thursday June 20, 2019 @08:09PM (#20238730)
It has "ESP", I assume that's the same as ESC?
Re:Mazda is purging touchscreens from its vehicles by brokenmachine on Thursday June 20, 2019 @01:27AM (#20230146)
Maybe a new Mazda will be up your alley!
Re:Mazda is purging touchscreens from its vehicles by elihu on Thursday June 20, 2019 @06:50PM (#20238192)
Mazda just moved to the top of my "I would buy an electric car from this manufacturer if I could" list, but they don't seem to be in a hurry to release a product.
Re:Mazda is purging touchscreens from its vehicles by smackay on Monday June 17, 2019 @01:08PM (#20205064)
There are lots of wires and connectors that come with mechanical controls. Everything need to be certified to make sure you don't have a recall of a million or two vehicles because the air-conditioning dials break after 6 months. All that must be crazy expensive compared to solid state electronics.
Re:Mazda is purging touchscreens from its vehicles by dublin on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @06:55PM (#20219255)
No, switches (even good ones), are cheaper than touchscreens that can handle automotive heat and vibration. It hardly matters which you use anymore, since pretty much all control heads are going to be networked onto a CAN bus or the like these days. Touchscreens are a bad idea for cars though, and I applaud Mazda for being the first to try to deliberately kick the damn things back to desks, pockets, and walls, where they belong.
Re:Mazda is purging touchscreens from its vehicles by JangoSteve on Monday June 17, 2019 @01:11PM (#20205094)
None of this is untrue with touchscreens. They also have wires and connectors and must be certified.
Re:Mazda is purging touchscreens from its vehicles by jdietrich on Monday June 17, 2019 @05:35PM (#20207613)
Have you ever seen behind the dashboard of a modern car? It's a monstrous tangle of wiring, with inch-thick cabling bundles and dozens or hundreds of connectors. A touchscreen-centric interface like the Tesla Model 3 could easily save several kilos of cables and connectors. There's a huge amount of labour involved in installing all that wiring and a huge number of opportunities for failure.

I support Mazda's efforts here, but there are compelling commercial and engineering reasons to go in the other direction.

Re:Mazda is purging touchscreens from its vehicles by metaphor on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @05:16AM (#20210889)
Do tell us all about the huge labor savings Tesla is running away with[1].

It blows my mind away how you can even begin to compare the predicted reliability of a complex touchscreen interface stuffed with active electronics to dumb buttons and wires with a straight face, let alone what fielded production units only a few years in have clearly demonstrated.

[1] https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-shows...

Re:Mazda is purging touchscreens from its vehicles by laughinghan on Monday June 17, 2019 @02:14PM (#20205833)
They have 2. One for power and one for data. Usually they're replacing a lot more than 2 buttons/knobs.
Re:Mazda is purging touchscreens from its vehicles by JangoSteve on Monday June 17, 2019 @03:46PM (#20206614)
> They have 2. One for power and one for data.

I don't think I've ever seen a touch screen with only two wires. For one thing, even power requires two wires, not one. Data for a touch screen typically requires more than one wire as well, especially considering there are two completely distinct types of data a touchscreen must transmit, those being display output and touch input.

Most touch screens I'm aware of have wire connections more like this:

https://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-2-4-color-tft-touchscree...

> Usually they're replacing a lot more than 2 buttons/knobs.

Not usually. Other than the Tesla, most cars retain almost all of their knobs/buttons in addition to the touch screen. In fact, the linked article in the OP says they're basically replacing the touch screen input with a single volume knob that lets you additional tilt and push it. Other cars, like BMW with the iDrive, usually have a single knob that lets you rotate and scroll through menus and push to select. Granted, it's not a simple knob, since it requires multiple degrees of input, but even a plastic knob that allows rotating, tilting, and pushing is probably cheaper than a touch screen when shared across models and mass produced.

I still think the bigger savings is probably the software updates required to constantly support and make your vehicle's physical input compatible with every new update of Android Auto and Apple Car Play, which the auto-makers have no control over and can only ever play catch-up. At least with a touch screen, they know that's where the Android and Apple engineers spend their own time making compatible.

The other place it probably saves is designing and laying out the interior, since it's easier to design an interior with fewer purpose-focused inputs. I'm not sure though if the touch screen would actually be easier though, since it can't be broken up across different small areas, and the entire thing has to be within both reach and active field of view. Especially the screens on top of the dash, since those often are designed to retract, which means the space they retract into needs to be designed around the HVAC and electrical systems between the firewall and dash.

Either way, both of these savings though would be on the design and engineering side, not the bill of materials.

Re:Mazda is purging touchscreens from its vehicles by laughinghan on Monday June 17, 2019 @04:35PM (#20207065)
Most touch screens I'm aware of have wire connections more like this [...]

That link is to a toy touchscreen. Are we counting every strand of metal as its own wire now? I think the power and the data cables are each bundles of lots of such strands, and no car manufacturers worry about the individual strands because each cable plugs into the circuit board as a cohesive unit, like: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Customized-odm-15-6-i...

(First Google result for "touchscreen alibaba", it's not like this is an obscure, rarely used configuration.)

Either way, both of these savings though would be on the design and engineering side, not the bill of materials.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Those sound like good points to me, but I don't know anything about this stuff.

Re:Mazda is purging touchscreens from its vehicles by bonestamp2 on Monday June 17, 2019 @05:54PM (#20207749)
I do know about this stuff (currently work for one OEM and have worked for 2 others) and you're exactly right.

Something that hasn't even been mentioned is all the meetings, documentation, coordination between people that work on the components that have to interface with each other. That labor is significantly reduced when you offload most of that to the touch screen because some of that interface can now be done by the same person without any meetings. That's not just cost savings, it's also time savings, which is part of why Tesla was able to bring the model 3 to market so fast (fast at least in the car world).

That said, I much prefer tactile controls. I recently moved from a BMW to a Volvo had the BMW had physical controls for most common functions while the Volvo only has a handful of buttons and one knob for volume. It's a pretty good balance, but I do miss a few buttons and more could be done on the touchscreen to ease that longing (such as customizable shortcuts).

Cadillac is starting to go back to more tactile controls because they've learned how terrible it is without any (my wife has a CTS so I completely understand why they're doing it -- it is awful). I hope Audi changes course too.

Re:Mazda is purging touchscreens from its vehicles by santafe on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @02:41AM (#20210265)
For one thing, even power requires two wires, not one

The chasis is your second cable.

Re:Mazda is purging touchscreens from its vehicles by brokenmachine on Thursday June 20, 2019 @01:40AM (#20230217)
You still need a wire from the touchscreen to the chassis.
Re:Mazda is purging touchscreens from its vehicles by ThePirateofOz on Monday June 17, 2019 @01:21PM (#20205218)
And every single application loaded and installed, software library, SDK and license has to be rolled up into the BOM for every headunit sold/installed.
Re:Mazda is purging touchscreens from its vehicles by laughinghan on Monday June 17, 2019 @02:18PM (#20205883)
It seems obvious to me that one team of software engineers doing testing and diagnostics on a piece of software is way cheaper than training and then paying entire factories to do testing and diagnostics on each button and knob. (Not to mention we're talking about like, volume controls. Not exactly the most complicated and expensive kind of software to engineer.)
Re:Mazda is purging touchscreens from its vehicles by bluGill on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @12:55PM (#20215193)
Not to mention if you screw up the software an update is generally cheap and easy. If your button is messed up you have to pay for a mechanic to tear apart the entire dash.

Of course you need to get the touch screen reliable. A touch screen is more complex than a button, but if we call it the cost of 10 buttons, a touch screen replaces more than 10 buttons...

For common functions separate buttons are better for UX. However the touch screen is cheaper.

Re:Mazda is purging touchscreens from its vehicles by giobox on Monday June 17, 2019 @01:30PM (#20205322)
I imagine they are that expensive. Even low volume car manufacturers often "borrow" switchgear from mainstream brands to avoid the cost of making custom switches. This is why any reader fortunate enough to afford a modern Aston Martin will find the cabin filled with a lot of Mercedes switchgear, as one example. Go back farther than that and Aston were owned by Ford, which is why mid-2000s Astons are filled with very cheap feeling physical Ford controls from this era. Etc, etc. Parts sharing is critical to affordable production.

Touch screens are staggeringly cheap now, as anyone with a Raspberry Pi and too much free time can attest, and fits virtually any car, as opposed to switch gear design which often requires the rest of the dash to fit with the design of the button or knob too. A screen mounting location is usually just a rectangular hole in a dash.

Re:Mazda is purging touchscreens from its vehicles by pugworthy on Monday June 17, 2019 @05:03PM (#20207363)
They may be cheap to create, but the cost of upgrading is incredibly expensive.

It's impossible (without great expense) to add a new physical button to a car as an upgrade. Very easy to push a software update that updates a touch display.

Re:Mazda is purging touchscreens from its vehicles by jammi on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @09:36AM (#20212796)
> Are knobs and plastic moldings that expensive though?

Yeah, the molding for any typical single component is tens of thousands of dollars per iteration. A car has a lot of those components, so the fewer the better.

Re:Mazda is purging touchscreens from its vehicles by hnick on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @04:30AM (#20221705)
It's not just the up front cost. They can roll out updates and patches to change the functionality too.

Maybe throw in some cheeky DLC to unlock certain features too ;)