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Re:Gimp 2.10.12 by harel on Thursday June 13, 2019 @05:41AM (#20173090)
What do you consider hostile in those changes? I'm only a light user, and didn't feel any hostility...
Re:Gimp 2.10.12 by torstenvl on Thursday June 13, 2019 @06:46AM (#20173467)
An extremely common workflow is: open an image in your image editor, make an edit, save it. That workflow results in a Save As dialog as of 2.8, pre-filled with .xcf, and no way to save the opened file.

In nearly every program in common use, the open → edit → save workflow Just Works. In some programs (e.g., Word) you might get a dialog extolling the features of the newest proprietary format, but it won't prohibit you from saving as the original format (.doc, .rtf, whatever).

GIMP does. The functionality is completely removed from the Save dialog. You have to somehow know to cancel your save (talk about unintuitive) and go use the Export dialog.

IMO, this was an unforced error. GIMP copied the Photoshop Save workflow mistake, despite it being the minority position, despite GIMP's own history of the UI for that feature, and despite not having any (published) A-B studies.

Re:Gimp 2.10.12 by ken on Thursday June 13, 2019 @10:21AM (#20175116)
> In nearly every program in common use, the open → edit → save workflow Just Works.

As a Mac user, I can't recall seeing this behavior anywhere, so I checked all the graphics programs I have here. Affinity Designer, Graphic (formerly iDraw), and Pixelmator all use "Save" to mean the application's native format, and "Export" for other formats. So do Apple's iWork apps. So do Omni's apps.

In fact, I can't find a single program that works the way you say "nearly every program in common use" does it. The Apple Human Interface Guidelines call for a Save/Export split along these lines, too, so it's not just a lone Adobe mistake.

Is that a Windows convention? The GNOME/Gtk+ community has not tended to follow Windows UI conventions.

Re:Gimp 2.10.12 by torstenvl on Thursday June 13, 2019 @07:17PM (#20179429)
Did you try any of the more common image editing software? Both MS Paint and macOS's Preview allow the common workflow of open → edit → save.

Affinity Designer isn't an image editor. Consistent with its name and marketing, it is graphic design software.

Obviously I have no objection to GIMP positioning itself as a graphic design program rather than an image manipulation program. However, if that's the direction they wanna go, perhaps they might consider changing their name to something other than "GNU Image Manipulation Program."

Re:Gimp 2.10.12 by detaro on Thursday June 13, 2019 @07:20PM (#20179443)
Both of your examples also do not have a native format, due to not having features making one necessary.
Re:Gimp 2.10.12 by torstenvl on Thursday June 13, 2019 @10:31PM (#20180182)
And yet they are the image editors in the most common use.
Re:Gimp 2.10.12 by soulofmischief on Thursday June 13, 2019 @07:35AM (#20173741)
> In nearly every program in common use, the open → edit → save workflow Just Works.

Most programs aren't image editors which can export in a variety of formats as well as save in a native, preserving format. How Microsoft Word works has literally nothing to do with how GIMP works.

> GIMP copied the Photoshop Save workflow mistake

Tens of hours of work done on accident?

> despite it being the minority position

Photoshop a minority??

> despite GIMP's own history of the UI for that feature

A previous major version's UI has relevance to a future major version's UI???

> despite it being the minority position

Who is paying for these studies????

Re:Gimp 2.10.12 by jhasse on Thursday June 13, 2019 @09:19AM (#20174536)
> A previous major version's UI has relevance to a future major version's UI???

Yes, of course.

Re:Gimp 2.10.12 by soulofmischief on Thursday June 13, 2019 @01:11PM (#20176798)
It's understandable that you should generally keep the UI the same between releases, it shouldn't be changing every release.

But at some point in a 20-year development cycle you might want to switch things up, and a major release is the time to do it.

I don't think anyone had a legitimate complaint when Blender completely revamped their UI a few years ago. It was objectively better, and "it's different than what I'm used to" was not a valid complaint.

Re:Gimp 2.10.12 by rjeli on Thursday June 13, 2019 @07:42AM (#20173779)
i’m pretty sure you can open a PNG in the gimp, edit it and then File > overwrite png, which immediately overwrites it
Re:Gimp 2.10.12 by purerandomness on Thursday June 13, 2019 @09:05AM (#20174400)
Sure you can. That's not the point.
Re:Gimp 2.10.12 by alpaca128 on Thursday June 13, 2019 @06:14AM (#20173249)
It's not hostile but it feels completely unnecessary. I don't see any UX improvement by splitting up multiple options of a single feature into two separate menus.
Re:Gimp 2.10.12 by NikkiA on Thursday June 13, 2019 @06:26AM (#20173318)
It stops people saving a master copy as .xcf, then saving as png to export, then hitting Ctrl-S and thinking they've saved their master copy when they haven't.

As such it is most definitely a positive change, even if it does go against my 'muscle' memory of how I used to work it, and cause me to 'doh' more often than I should.

Re:Gimp 2.10.12 by Kaiyou on Thursday June 13, 2019 @09:13AM (#20174469)
I've been using gimp since at least 2003 and never used .xcf files. Sometimes I accidentally saved as .xcf which was a huge bother, since that file format is useless outside of gimp.
Re:Gimp 2.10.12 by cygx on Thursday June 13, 2019 @07:21AM (#20173642)
On the flip side, it complicates workflows with non-xcf master copies.
Re:Gimp 2.10.12 by uryga on Thursday June 13, 2019 @07:52AM (#20173843)
i think of exporting like compiling. the .xcf is the "source" (layers, non-destructive effects, vector paths, etc), and i only want to save when i'm working on that. when i want to "build" it into a flat .png that people can actually use, i export it.
Re:Gimp 2.10.12 by Kaiyou on Friday June 14, 2019 @04:45AM (#20181414)
If possible, I'd like to completely get rid of everything xcf inside gimp. It's useless overhead to me.