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Re:World's largest plant survey reveals alarming extinction ... by laydn on Monday June 10, 2019 @04:30PM (#20150501)
The article says, "the project looked at more than 330,000 species...." and "...seed-bearing plants have been disappearing at a rate of nearly 3 species a year since 1900 ― which is up to 500 times higher".

So since 1900, that's 357 species disappearing, out of 330,000 (~0.1%)

How did they arrive at the conclusion that this is an "alarming rate"? Also, "up to 500 times higher" means, the expected rate is less than 1 plant going extinct out of 330,000 species, which sounds way too good to be true.

Re:World's largest plant survey reveals alarming extinction ... by jniedrauer on Monday June 10, 2019 @04:37PM (#20150572)
> Also, "up to 500 times higher" means, the expected rate is less than 1 plant going extinct out of 330,000 species, which sounds way too good to be true.

Speciation does not occur in human timespans. If 3 species of seed bearing plants out of 330,000 went extinct per year, we could expect to live on a barren planet within 110,000 years. This is a very rapid rate, given that plant life has existed for 5,000 times longer than that.

Re:World's largest plant survey reveals alarming extinction ... by radicalbyte on Monday June 10, 2019 @04:46PM (#20150654)
We literally breed new subtypes of plants, constantly, to improve our food crops. Those are new species being created within a human life span.
Re:World's largest plant survey reveals alarming extinction ... by NeedMoreTea on Monday June 10, 2019 @05:08PM (#20150878)
Naturally evolved unknown or little studied species are a rather different proposition to 100 new varieties of well studied apple and wheat etc, created by and for industrial agriculture.

Who knows what chemical and medicinal discoveries we shut ourselves away from as species are dying out. Consider a single poppy species that gave medicine 4 or 5 chemicals that turn out to be the basis of the vast majority of medicine's strong pain relief repertoire.

Re:World's largest plant survey reveals alarming extinction ... by toss1 on Monday June 10, 2019 @05:23PM (#20151002)
Yes, humans breed new cultivars.

This is far more of a problem than a solution.

1) Many of the bred/GMO cultivars are sterile and/or unable to survive in the wild. They actively work against biodiversity.

2) Many of the bred/GMO strains are used in monocultures either in agriculture or gardens. These both displace the native plants, steal resources, and are also far more vulnerable to pests, disease, etc. Again, not improving, but destroying biodiversity.

3) Much of human activity in addition to breeding new species/cultivars is also deliberately or inadvertently moving species into new ecosystems. Some of these become rapidly spreading invasives that damage or destroy the local ecosystem, both plants and insects, animals, and birds that feed on the now damaged ecosystem (& no, they usually cannot just eat the new plant, nevermind if it's not toxic).

4) Many of the bred/GMO variants, even if planted in their native habitat, are incapable of providing sustenance to native insects & birds. While they may still have the external characteristics to attract them (odor, UV spectrum colors, etc.), they lack the actual nutrients, e.g., because they are sterile. So, not only do the human breeding/GMO activities damage biodiversity in plants, they are also damaging the other ecosystems.

So, if you are going to count human bred/GMO'd cultivars, they need to be counted against biodiversity.

Between these disruptions of the plant ecosystem, pesticides, habitat destruction, climate change, and other effects, we are much more dangerously close to breaking the food chain than people imagine.

This is invisible because of ignorance, normalcy bias, and the fact that these are enormously complex ecological webs, and they are very resilient until they aren't -- at which point the system collapses and it is too late to repair.

Numerous civilizations and indeed ecosystems have collapsed because of this sort of problem (see e.g., Permian Extinction which nearly extinguished life on the planet).

We are now causing this on a global scale and, except for the asteroid ~65MM years ago, at a pace unprecedented in geologic history.

Re:World's largest plant survey reveals alarming extinction ... by fzeroracer on Monday June 10, 2019 @06:09PM (#20151370)
Yes, and that's the problem. We breed new subtypes of plants for human consumption.

The problem from a mass extinction of plants is that we don't know what the reverberating effects of those eradications can mean. There are many animal, insect etc species which may be reliant on said plants for primary nutrition which then percolates all the way up the food chain and potentially decimating other animal populations.

It is not hard to imagine the potential side effects of say, the resulting plant extinction resulting in massive bee population losses for example. But that's just one prominent example of what lost biodiversity can potentially cause. This lost biodiversity can then further contribute to the rise of invasive species and the result is a destabilization of multiple biomes which have been relatively stable for a long period of time.

Re:World's largest plant survey reveals alarming extinction ... by jniedrauer on Monday June 10, 2019 @04:56PM (#20150763)
This seems disingenuous. Genetically modified organisms created in a lab have no bearing on the proliferation of biodiversity outside the lab.
Re:World's largest plant survey reveals alarming extinction ... by mirimir on Monday June 10, 2019 @05:06PM (#20150862)
I wouldn't say "no bearing". But if current trends continued, there wouldn't be much left except people, livestock, pets, crop plants (including trees), insect pests, and microorganisms. And stuff in zoos and botanical gardens.

However, that's unlikely. Well before that, human society and population will likely collapse, due to climate change.

Re:World's largest plant survey reveals alarming extinction ... by TeMPOraL on Monday June 10, 2019 @05:08PM (#20150879)
GP likely isn't talking about lab-grown experimental GMOs, but regular farming. Many if not most of the food we eat is completely unlike it was before humans invented agriculture.
Re:World's largest plant survey reveals alarming extinction ... by Thev00d00 on Monday June 10, 2019 @05:07PM (#20150872)
I think he was referring to boring old selective breeding
Re:World's largest plant survey reveals alarming extinction ... by toss1 on Monday June 10, 2019 @05:25PM (#20151026)
Whoever is downvoting this comment is ignorant.

GMOs and cultivars grown in labs not only have no positive effect on biodiversity, they have significant negative effects. See more detailed post above.

Re:World's largest plant survey reveals alarming extinction ... by roenxi on Monday June 10, 2019 @08:29PM (#20152153)
> Speciation does not occur in human timespans.

I'm no biologist, but surely that is a Pandora's Box of a claim. There isn't even one clear definition of what a 'species' actually is [0].

I can't find a source, but I'm guessing most species are small, short lived creatures with a lifespan of ~1 year; such as mice or insects. That is 70+ generations per human lifespan - 70 generations probably is long enough to get a new species if there is evolutionary pressure.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species#Definition

Re:World's largest plant survey reveals alarming extinction ... by irrational on Monday June 10, 2019 @06:42PM (#20151589)
I imagine humans would die off and plants would rebound and diversify before the planet became barren.
Re:World's largest plant survey reveals alarming extinction ... by EB66 on Monday June 10, 2019 @04:38PM (#20150575)
> How did they arrive at the conclusion that this is an "alarming rate"?

It's a subjective description of a factual conclusion of the study. Extinction rates that are "500 times faster than they would naturally [be]" are certainly alarming to me as well.

Re:World's largest plant survey reveals alarming extinction ... by hnthrowaway2847 on Monday June 10, 2019 @04:35PM (#20150548)
Speciation is likely a slow process and 100 years is not a long time on an evolutionary time frame, so without any numbers backing me up 1 extinction per 100 years background extinction rate without a major event seems reasonable.
Re:World's largest plant survey reveals alarming extinction ... by onion2k on Monday June 10, 2019 @04:43PM (#20150619)
which sounds way too good to be true

Why do you think that sounds too good to be true? Why would a species become extinct naturally? Nature seems pretty good at maintaining a species once its evolved to be viable. Obviously things do die out naturally, but to me (a non-botanist) it seems like something that would be very unusual without external factors (eg meteorites, global floods, climate change..)

Re:World's largest plant survey reveals alarming extinction ... by laydn on Monday June 10, 2019 @04:54PM (#20150745)
What do you mean? Plants compete for resources (water, sunlight, soil nutrients) as well.

Also, there are diseases that can target specific plants, when unchecked, can wipe out an entire plant population (see Panama disease for bananas for an example)

Re:World's largest plant survey reveals alarming extinction ... by sunshinelackof on Monday June 10, 2019 @05:08PM (#20150880)
> see Panama disease for bananas for an example

Extinction level blights similar to these are not often found in the natural world. They're only a thing because we (humans) eliminated genetic diversity from crops through grafts and clones. If the plants reproduced naturally its likely that a range of genetically diverse children would have been resistant to the fungus.

Re:World's largest plant survey reveals alarming extinction ... by nielsbot on Monday June 10, 2019 @04:37PM (#20150568)
> which sounds way too good to be true

Based on what?

Re:World's largest plant survey reveals alarming extinction ... by AnimalMuppet on Monday June 10, 2019 @05:06PM (#20150860)
Based on what I'd expect the rate to be. I'd expect the rate to be much higher.

Why would I expect that? Because of all the "sky is falling" rhetoric. I don't expect that to mean the sky is falling over the next 10,000 years; I expect it to mean that the sky is falling now.

[Edit: Note that I am not saying that this is good news - just that it is considerably less bad than I expected.]

Re:World's largest plant survey reveals alarming extinction ... by mirimir on Monday June 10, 2019 @05:08PM (#20150877)
The "next 10,000 years" is "now", from an evolutionary perspective.
Re:World's largest plant survey reveals alarming extinction ... by TeMPOraL on Monday June 10, 2019 @05:18PM (#20150965)
10 000 years is also 2x more than entire recorded history, and about the time since humans stopped being subject to biological evolution as the main driver of development.

10 000 years is a lot of time. Compared to other climate issues, with consequences expected in decades, this deserves at best a "cool, we'll fix that in a century or two, if technological civilization still exists by that time".

Re:World's largest plant survey reveals alarming extinction ... by mirimir on Monday June 10, 2019 @08:14PM (#20152084)
Maybe so. But it's a gamble. If species that we depend on go, such as pollinators, we'll be SOL.

On the other hand, I do agree with your practical assessment:

> "cool, we'll fix that in a century or two, if technological civilization still exists by that time".

Because, if for no other reason, it probably won't.

And there's also the fact that it's a human impact that can't likely be mitigated in any other way than collapse of the human population.

Re:World's largest plant survey reveals alarming extinction ... by agumonkey on Monday June 10, 2019 @05:32PM (#20151090)
maybe fear of non linear growth ?