Aware there is censorship at all? From conversations with Chinese citizens living abroad whom I work with, they say the knowledge censorship is occurring is common, but as to understanding what types of information is being censored they only know in general terms.

Anecdotally, in China, the younger generations can’t get answers from the older generations who lived through these times because it’s verboten to speak of them. It leads to an (academically interesting) censorship feedback loop.

From my perspective it’s hard to know what you don’t know if the Powers-That-Be want to keep it a secret.

For example, here in the U.S. I assume we’re reasonably censorship-free, but by no means am I confident we have access to everything (excluding governmental information requiring clearances).

I do recognize our various media outlets play a major role in determining what the narrative is and which stories/reports/messages are raised to the level of societal recognition. I know people who consider this to be an indirect form of censorship.

> Anecdotally, in China, the younger generations can’t get answers from the older generations who lived through these times because it’s verboten to speak of them.

Chinese speak very freely about all topics in private and with people they know.

> Chinese speak very freely about all topics in private and with people they know.

It sounds like that's not always the case:

https://www.inkstonenews.com/politics/tiananmen-crackdown-aw...

> Mark was intrigued by the seemingly unlikely scene, in which his now civil servant father chanted slogans against the government. But before he could probe him for more information, his mother had called an end to the discussion: “Stop talking about this.”

> ....Anecdotes of talented people punished for taking part in the protests are part of the Tiananmen story that witnesses have been passing on. The underlying message is: stay away or you will end up like that.

My dad was a student in Beijing at the time and was going to join in because that was the cool thing to do for students at the time, however he was stopped at a bridge by soldiers and didn't participate. He is pretty chill about the whole thing and says that if he did end up participating, he probably wouldn't be alive or his career would be ruined.

Perhaps that’s the norm, though my coworker commented a few minutes ago about how she has asked her parents questions about politically-related issues or events in private and they still are evasive about answering.

Her experiences may be uncommon and is only a single data point.

>though my coworker commented a few minutes ago about how she has asked her parents questions about politically-related issues or events in private and they still are evasive about answering.

Some people are more skirmish than others. In every country, there are people who won't discuss politics, for fear of "getting in trouble", even more so in a place like China.

But that doesn't mean the average citizen wont discuss them with friends/family/etc.

Agreed, which is why I attempted to make the original statement grey and not black/ white. Skittishness around discussing items is a form of self-censorship.

You might consider this akin to parents being uncomfortable discussing certain topics with their children - much like many parents feel uncomfortable discussing topics about sex and sexual practices here in North America. It's not necessarily that it's forbidden, it's just that many people have been made to feel awkward and uncomfortable discussing sex. I imagine the same mechanism of guilt is at play all over the world for various topics.

Or maybe they just remember the Cultural Revolution where children were encouraged to inform on their parents.

Or just an effort to protect their children.

Also, there are forums in which the Chinese do freely discuss these topics, obviously with to some degree of discretion. But yes, they generally stick to speaking about sensitive topics to verbal conversation since there's significantly less 'keyboard warriors' over there - especially ones with any strong political lean.

> since there's significantly less 'keyboard warriors' over there - especially ones with any strong political lean.

Really? I was under the impression that had quite a few, and even thousands that are paid by the government to post: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party.

> there's significantly less 'keyboard warriors' over there

HN is not blocked in China. Interesting. What is the sentiment when access to a popular website is removed? Does everyone just VPN, or forget about it?

Speaking "freely in private" is an oxymoron.

On that note, apparently Instagram in Laos is blocking "liking" posts related to Tiananmen Square.

> I’m in Laos, a close ally of China, & whenever I “Like” a post on @instagram related to Tiananmen Square it comes up with a message saying “Action Blocked”. When I switch on my VPN it allow me to “Like” the images. I wonder if China provides internet infrastructure to Laos.

https://twitter.com/adamjdean/status/1135809731879088128

This is a big deal if true. I can't imagine they did that without https or other encryption. It would have to be FB doing this.

I've often wondered how many controls Facebook gives to SE Asia in exchange for being allowed to operate there. Do they get moderator powers or alert systems?

In Vietnam about 5 years ago, you could only use Facebook on your phone. It's hard for me to imagine the dictatorships of Cambodia, Laos, and Vietnam welcoming Facebook and allowing the population to freely criticize the government.

It's interesting that you can view the content, but just not like it.

I wonder if it's being logged who tries to like and fails, and if so, who has access to that info.

Seems in line with what is known so far, e.g. https://gking.harvard.edu/publications/how-censorship-china-...

That does seem consistent. But why adopt that strategy? Why not pull out the dissent by its roots?

They're giving them a delusion of freedom so that most won't realize they're censored or passively accept it. If the government goes all out then it might cause a revolt. Soft tactics are always scarier than hard tactics.

Laos is quite locked down, beyond the internet. You technically can't form a group (e.g. a book club) there without the government's consent, and it is very hard for NGOs to operate. I would not be surprised at any level of internet censorship there, except that Vientiane is within cell distance of Thailand, so maybe that forces them open a little.

Almost certainly aware of something certainly given the sheer clumbsiness like shutting down the stock market when the top numbers come up on numbers which are also coded references to Tinamen Square. You would probably be interested in this article of related weird bypasses and defiance. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grass_Mud_Horse

censorship was rebranded as "battle against misinformation" these days.

Yea, not really. There is a difference between preventing people from spreading facts and preventing people from spreading blatant lies.

What’s the difference, really? One truth is that power corrupts. The power to “prevent people from spreading blatant lies” is the power to be the arbiter of truth; it’s naive to think that power will never be abused.

Not sure there is.

You need someone to make the call between truth and lies. That person then has all the power.

the key is "preventing".

Once the mechanism is there, the power will be likely get abused.

Also, who decides what's lie? Is providing partial truth a lie? It's all about perspective.

When overlords and their followers believe themselves and to be benevolent moral authorities (as most do), any criticism is seen as malicious misinformation. It also helps that the overlords are in a position to control the flow of information, and thus define what is fact and what is fiction, according to their version of reality.

to tell a lie

to hide a truth