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Re:Lack of leadership in open source results in source-avail... by adamson on Saturday June 01, 2019 @03:50PM (#20071204)
I don't think it's that hard to understand. To some degree, Amazon's behavior is exploiting an idealism that has given us software such as Linux that we're all benefitting from today, and it's easy to see why a starry-eyed engineer would want to carry on that legacy and create a project such as Redis with a permissive license.

What you say ("The whole point of choosing a permissive license is that you want others to have the right to profit off of your work and give you nothing in return.") is obvious in hindsight, and should go without saying if you start a project with the express intent of commercializing it. However, in many cases, it's not the obvious decision for reasons related to the project's genesis (e.g. Spark or Mesos being student projects), and in others, it's not the route taken because of an idealistic impulse that I think would be really unfortunate to see squashed.

Re:Lack of leadership in open source results in source-avail... by badsectoracula on Saturday June 01, 2019 @04:06PM (#20071322)
> What you say [...] is obvious in hindsight

It was also widely known for many years before Redis was a thing, i remember Slashdot comments from early 2000s about how BSD proponents are taken advantage of and they seem to like that whereas GPL proponents are taken advantage of as much as they take advantage those who take advantage of them (weird phrasing because the original quote i remember was a bit more explicit).

So it isn't really something you only knew in hindsight, it is also something that comes by ignoring people who were warning you about the consequences of your choice (royal you here).

[dead]
Re:Lack of leadership in open source results in source-avail... by detaro on Saturday June 01, 2019 @06:02PM (#20071966)
I'm sure listening more to Stallman would have helped AGPL-licensed MongoDB avoid all this.
Re:Lack of leadership in open source results in source-avail... by mavelikara on Saturday June 01, 2019 @04:00PM (#20071284)
Amazon is, in effect, bringing attention to this issue and I am glad that they are.

> What you say ("The whole point of choosing a permissive license is that you want others to have the right to profit off of your work and give you nothing in return.") is obvious in hindsight, and should go without saying if you start a project with the express intent of commercializing it.

Even if you do thoughtfully choose a license with the express intent of commercializing the work, some competing project elsewhere - student projects, in your example - will eat your market. It is about time players entering our industry be warned of the effects of such "pissing-in-the-pool" activities.

Re:Lack of leadership in open source results in source-avail... by danShumway on Saturday June 01, 2019 @04:06PM (#20071327)
> some competing project elsewhere - student projects, in your example - will eat your market.

If a student somewhere is willing to do the same thing as your company for free and release their work under MIT, why is that a problem?

This smacks to me of Microsoft complaining that projects like Linux shouldn't be allowed to exist, because its unreasonable to expect them to compete with free.

If eventually we get into a state where Open Source development really isn't viable, then people will stop doing it, fewer people will be eating your market, and then Source Available projects will become commercially viable.

Re:Lack of leadership in open source results in source-avail... by mavelikara on Saturday June 01, 2019 @04:11PM (#20071360)
> If a student somewhere is willing to do the same thing as your company for free and release their work under MIT, why is that a problem?

There isn't a problem with that. The problem is when such projects aspire to commercialize their work, find it hard, and then complain when other commercial entities exploit their work.

The hypocrisy I am pointing out is that to get a software adopted initially projects choose overly permissible licenses; then when they try to monetize the project, they run into issues and cry foul.

Re:Lack of leadership in open source results in source-avail... by jimktrains2 on Saturday June 01, 2019 @07:19PM (#20072397)
"exploit", you need the quotes because nothing was exploited. Someone else was able to execute better than you were, that isn't a crime.
Re:Lack of leadership in open source results in source-avail... by paulryanrogers on Saturday June 01, 2019 @04:10PM (#20071353)
Are you saying that choosing a permissive license is like "pissing-in-the-pool"? As if do so contaminates the market for everyone?
Re:Lack of leadership in open source results in source-avail... by mavelikara on Saturday June 01, 2019 @04:12PM (#20071372)
> Are you saying that choosing a permissive license is like "pissing-in-the-pool"?

Yes, choosing overly permissible licenses (non-GPL OSS ones, in particular) contaminates the market for other software projects operating in that market.

Re:Lack of leadership in open source results in source-avail... by eeZah7Ux on Saturday June 01, 2019 @05:22PM (#20071775)
Yes. The whole AWS problem stems from having too much software under "permissive" licenses and now enough under reciprocal licenses.

Reciprocal licenses work like herd immunity: you need a large enough ecosystem to effectively keep freeloaders at bay while rewarding those who cooperate often.

Re:Lack of leadership in open source results in source-avail... by detaro on Saturday June 01, 2019 @05:24PM (#20071786)
How would less permissive software existing have helped e.g. MongoDB with their "AWS problem"?
Re:Lack of leadership in open source results in source-avail... by pritambaral on Sunday June 02, 2019 @04:47AM (#20074289)
MongoDB did not have an "AWS problem". AWS did not release anything related to MongoDB until after they stopped making open-source releases.

MongoDB had a "We gave others freedoms we didn't like" problem, so they rescinded those freedoms. Freedoms that they'd given in the first place to profit off of the reputation of Open Source Software. If they'd never given those freedoms out, they'd never have had any problems.

Re:Lack of leadership in open source results in source-avail... by dcbadacd on Saturday June 01, 2019 @03:55PM (#20071245)
Linux uses GPL, it kind-of forces the tit-for-tat relationship.
Re:Lack of leadership in open source results in source-avail... by adamson on Saturday June 01, 2019 @04:12PM (#20071366)
Sure, but in this case e.g. GPL vs BSD is only marginally relevant (any modification needs to be GPL in the GPL case) to the particular case of selling OSS software as SaaS since either license lets you package and sell the bare software.
Re:Lack of leadership in open source results in source-avail... by Drdrdrq on Saturday June 01, 2019 @04:39PM (#20071555)
This is exactly it. GPL worked in the past, but if we take a look at Android (which is based on Linux) we can see that it failed to protect users' freedoms completely.
Re:Lack of leadership in open source results in source-avail... by AnaniasAnanas on Saturday June 01, 2019 @06:22PM (#20072062)
Something that GPLv3 would have prevented.
Re:Lack of leadership in open source results in source-avail... by klipt on Saturday June 01, 2019 @10:16PM (#20073041)
Then Android would probably have just based off BSD like iOS did.
Re:Lack of leadership in open source results in source-avail... by ForHackernews on Saturday June 01, 2019 @04:37PM (#20071540)
> an idealism that has given us software such as Linux

No, Linux is GPL licensed, it's not a naive permissive license.

Re:Lack of leadership in open source results in source-avail... by adamson on Saturday June 01, 2019 @05:13PM (#20071728)
Yes, but you’re still free to turn around and sell Linux as part of a SaaS offering as Amazon does. It saves you from someone surreptitiously forking your project and selling the fork without contributing back improvements to the public, but it doesn’t totally sidestep the issues in the article.
Re:Lack of leadership in open source results in source-avail... by ForHackernews on Saturday June 01, 2019 @05:23PM (#20071778)
True, but SaaS didn't exist at the time Linux was invented, so it's hard to fault Torvalds for not foreseeing this particular issue. The broader point, I'd argue, is that the idealism behind many successful free software projects was tempered by realism in choosing licenses that compel contributing back to the community.
Re:Lack of leadership in open source results in source-avail... by lightedman on Saturday June 01, 2019 @07:58PM (#20072563)
SaaS has been around since the 1960s
Re:Lack of leadership in open source results in source-avail... by detaro on Saturday June 01, 2019 @04:40PM (#20071561)
Mongo was AGPL.
Re:Lack of leadership in open source results in source-avail... by scarface74 on Saturday June 01, 2019 @04:16PM (#20071395)
There was no “idealism” behind the creation of Mongo, ElasticSearch, or Redis. They were all trying to profit and used open source as marketing.