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Re:Exponential Economist Meets Finite Physicist (2012) by philipkglass on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @06:51PM (#20046497)
I generally liked the Do The Math posts but I thought this was one of the weakest.

Physicist: "Right, if you plot the U.S. energy consumption in all forms from 1650 until now, you see a phenomenally faithful exponential at about 3% per year over that whole span."

It's not phenomenally faithful. There's an inflection point visible even in his large graph going back all the way to 1650. US primary energy consumption in 1977 was 78 quadrillion BTU (quads). At 2.9% annual growth it would have risen to 245 quads by 2017. Actual US primary energy consumption in 2017 was only 98 quads. The per capita primary energy consumption in the US was actually higher in 1977.

Physicists don't need to imagine future limits to growth. The limits are already visible in the historical record. But, contra the fears of many scientists circa 1960, the limits to growth showed up on the demand side before the supply side. We ended up with a world where widespread obesity is a problem and predicted gigadeaths from starvation did not actually happen.

For any product you can imagine consuming, there are "obesity"-type limits to how much more of that same product you can consume before the marginal utility goes negative. For any service you might use, similar limits apply since there are only 24 hours in a day.

The physicist character gives the more correct answer but his supporting evidence is flawed. The economist has the much worse answers, but only (I suspect) because he's a strawman constructed for didactic purposes. Economists generally don't make 1400 year forecasts of any sort.

Re:Exponential Economist Meets Finite Physicist (2012) by hn_throwaway_99 on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @11:05PM (#20048007)
Thank you thank you thank you. Honestly, this whole article had the veneer to me of "Ahh, poor silly economist..." I'm not sure if there is a great word for it, but I call it the "humble-brag equivalent of obnoxiously condescending"
Re:Exponential Economist Meets Finite Physicist (2012) by bshipp on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @11:28PM (#20048116)
I think part of the problem is that it's easy to draw a trend-line across a batch of data you actually know about, like oil reserves or food supplies, but incredibly difficult to make educated estimates about how we will resolve constraint problems in the future.

Naturally, the most rigorous analyses are going to be heavily weighted toward historical data, but will carefully ignore predicting future breakthroughs and paradigm shifts. Any analysis that tries to highlight humanity's adaptive ability would be laughably ignored, or at least minimized as being overly speculative.

So here we sit, with our broken pessimistic models, because they're the only ones the data supports.

Re:Exponential Economist Meets Finite Physicist (2012) by philipkglass on Thursday May 30, 2019 @01:05PM (#20053383)
It's not just the pessimistic scarcity predictions that suffer from long term extrapolation. Optimistic ones of abundance have missed the mark just as badly. Alvin Weinberg, writing in the June 1970 issue of the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, made an optimistic case for the very large scale use of breeder reactors -- 160 terawatts of breeder reactor capacity installed by 2050. His physics are perfectly sound. But the demand growth which this scenario assumes has not materialized.

He imagined that the world might come to demand 20 kilowatts per capita (more than twice the present per capita use in the US) and have 20 billion people living in it. Neither population growth nor energy consumption per capita growth have kept up with his estimates. Accordingly, nuclear fuel reprocessing and the breeder reactor alike have remained niche technologies without broad industrial impact. There was never enough uranium consumption growth to economically justify complicated reactors or fuel cycles.

It is difficult to make predictions, especially about the future.

Re:Exponential Economist Meets Finite Physicist (2012) by Balgair on Thursday May 30, 2019 @11:15AM (#20052067)
It's just Physicists in general.

https://xkcd.com/793/ (scroll over text is on point here)

Especially when they get older, they try to apply the 'make a cow a sphere of water, one meter in radius' trick all sorts of other areas. The issue is that they can't deal with 'history' in real life. Most of life is chaotic and the initial conditions and stochastic nature of the world make it almost impossible to predict anything. Not all things can be made into neat theories, in fact, it's a miracle that anything does fit into neat little theories. Physicists don't like that. Typically, they start throwing around all sorts of math-y sounding words when they realize that their 'model' won't work at all (Oh, just take the Hamiltonian, that'll solve it). If that still doesn't work, they make an excuse to go to a bar as soon as possible.

Re:Exponential Economist Meets Finite Physicist (2012) by msla on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @07:38PM (#20046860)
> But, contra the fears of many scientists circa 1960, the limits to growth showed up on the demand side before the supply side. We ended up with a world where widespread obesity is a problem and predicted gigadeaths from starvation did not actually happen.

And I think some people were... "disappointed", for lack of a better word, that this happened. That their fantasies of global collapse Soylent Green-style didn't pan out, that the lackadaisical masses who had the temerity to not give up all modern advances weren't punished by the Dread God Malthus. Call it Puritanical Luddism, call it Apocalyptic Deep Green, call it a dogmatic insistence that any system not under totalitarian control must collapse.

Re:Exponential Economist Meets Finite Physicist (2012) by Terr_ on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @08:03PM (#20047022)
I think it's more about self-unfulfilling prophecies. I mean, a happy ending for Ebeneezer Scrooge doesn't necessarily mean that the Ghost Of Christmas Yet To Come was a liar.
Re:Exponential Economist Meets Finite Physicist (2012) by bshipp on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @09:04PM (#20047377)
Malthusian advocates tend to view the economy as static. One of the most recent surges in that line of thinking was the worlds impending doom at the hands of Peak Oil. Every single trendline in the early 2000's showed us running into a supply wall with no possibly salvation.

And here we are, not even 20 years later, and America could potentially become a net exporter of oil. economics is hard because supply and demand are incredibly dynamic, and react far quicker than anyone seems to think.

That said, a non-Malthusian ending does not mean a happy ending, or even a better world than previously existed. Huge (long overdue, IMHO) investments in the commodity markets in 2006-2009 are going to keep us going for another few decades until another cycle of underinvestment bites us again. However, each time the invisible hand flings money from one pot into another there is uncounted costs in disrupted lives, environmental impacts, and national upheaval. Capitalism is far from perfect, but--at least in terms of resource allocation in dynamic information-starved systems--its the least imperfect solution we've got.

Re:Exponential Economist Meets Finite Physicist (2012) by BlueTemplar on Thursday May 30, 2019 @06:52AM (#20049926)
Dynamic systems researchers "tend to view the economy as static" ?!

King Hubbert was laughed at when he predicted in 1956 that USA oil production would peak in a decade or so. It did.

http://www.hubbertpeak.com/hubbert/1956/1956.pdf

In 1998 Campbell & Laherrère predicted "The End of Cheap Oil" before 2010, due to the peak of conventional oil.

http://www.oilcrisis.com/campbell/endofcheapoil.pdf

The International Energy Agency called them "pessimists" :

http://petrole.blog.lemonde.fr/files/2011/04/weo1998.1302253...

In 1998-1999 the price of an oil barrel fell from $30 to $20.

In 2008 it reached $160.

These days it fluctuates between $40 and $70.

https://www.macrotrends.net/1369/crude-oil-price-history-cha...

In 2010 the same IEA said that conventional oil production had peaked in 2006.

https://www.iea.org/publications/freepublications/publicatio...

And while the USA is fairly close to be a [net exporter of liquid hydrocarbons](https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2018/12/09/no-the-u-s-i...) (not crude oil), the future of tight oil doesn't look good - Laherrere seems to forecast peak tight oil for 2018 :

https://aspofrance.files.wordpress.com/2018/03/lahall19march...

(it takes a while to collect the data...)

Sure, maybe we'll figure out how to economically extract even less conventional hydrocarbons (like shale oil = kerogen, which you have to "cook" before it can be used), but these will be even more expensive and polluting !

Re:Exponential Economist Meets Finite Physicist (2012) by AstralStorm on Thursday May 30, 2019 @02:31AM (#20048892)
Come on. We haven't tried any other emerging solutions such as global government or full on ochlocracy. Yet always people cousin capitalistm is best we got only because it's the thing we currently have, committing the same mistake of being static, just on the higher level.

Not to mention capitalism is an umbrella term with many variants making it a works claim. As if you said "the best we have is cars".

Re:Exponential Economist Meets Finite Physicist (2012) by msla on Thursday May 30, 2019 @11:58AM (#20052487)
> Not to mention capitalism is an umbrella term with many variants making it a works claim.

That's part of the strength of Capitalism: You can tweak it, modify the regulatory regime, and it's still Capitalism. You don't need a revolution to modify some deep theory in order to improve how you regulate a Capitalist economy, or to adopt some ideas from the Socialist platform, like you would to modify a specific Socialist ideology.

Re:Exponential Economist Meets Finite Physicist (2012) by benj111 on Thursday May 30, 2019 @08:42AM (#20050538)
"It's not phenomenally faithful. There's an inflection point"

I think its legitimate to draw a trend line ignoring the kink in the last 10% of the graph. I mean yes we could now be on a different trajectory, but that's just 'this time it's different' thinking, that's not to say it isn't a legitimate discussion, just that its a separate discussion.

No energy growth was anyway covered in a later 'course'.

Re:Exponential Economist Meets Finite Physicist (2012) by paraschopra on Thursday May 30, 2019 @06:34AM (#20049846)
> For any product you can imagine consuming, there are "obesity"-type limits to how much more of that same product you can consume before the marginal utility goes negative. For any service you might use, similar limits apply since there are only 24 hours in a day.

Not if products are finanicalized (like equity, debt or land ownership). There's no obesity-type limit to net worth of an individual and that money allows the person to have unprecedented power to exploit actual physical resources and energy. Some, like Bezos for his Blue Origin project, decide to do so.

> We ended up with a world where widespread obesity is a problem and predicted gigadeaths from starvation did not actually happen.

This is looking at a very specific metric of human well-being. The limits of nature assert themselves in various ways. The loss of biodiversity and climate change is directly attributable to economic growth. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/25/capita...