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Re:Buyer's Remorse: High Debt and Low Pay Leave Some College... by rayiner on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @11:55AM (#20041671)
Blaming the “market” for this is bizarre. You have guidance counselors at government-run high schools goosing demand by telling kids that college is the only way to happy life. Then, the federal government gives them student loans with no credit check or analysis of ability to repay. (More than 90% of student loan debt is owed to the federal government.) Students hand that money over to colleges, which are either directly government run, or heavily subsidized by the government. So where exactly is the “market?”
Re:Buyer's Remorse: High Debt and Low Pay Leave Some College... by wpietri on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @02:51PM (#20043922)
I'm not blaming "the 'market'", whatever that means. I'm saying the shift from government-paid higher ed to student-loan-paid higher ed was promoted as a more market-oriented approach. Part of the theory was that if we put students in debt bondage for their education, they'd made better choices than if the government was controlling things.

Personally, I look at markets as tools for solving optimization problems, and I'm saying that one of the factors that makes that work well is missing here.

Re:Buyer's Remorse: High Debt and Low Pay Leave Some College... by rayiner on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @05:15PM (#20045584)
> I'm saying the shift from government-paid higher ed to student-loan-paid higher ed was promoted as a more market-oriented approach.

That was never the theory. The theory was that we decided we needed everyone to go to college. We realized that not everyone cold afford to go to college. Giving students loans is cheaper than paying tuition directly, because you'll get most of the money back, so the government flooded the market with no-credit-check student loans. Nobody involved was ever trying to create a functioning market, even an artificial market.

Re:Buyer's Remorse: High Debt and Low Pay Leave Some College... by wpietri on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @10:45PM (#20047908)
Two things can be true at once. In this case, it's true that people wanted to expand access to education. It's also true that, rather than just subsidizing education properly, this was seen as a more market-oriented approach.

I also don't think it's true that "giving students loans is cheaper than paying tuition directly". Governments are in a unique position to capture broad societal gains through taxation. So I think the cheaper option is just to fund education, especially the sorts we think increase economic productivity, and then tax the resulting income.

Re:Buyer's Remorse: High Debt and Low Pay Leave Some College... by repolfx on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @03:20PM (#20044235)
Part of the theory was that if we put students in debt bondage for their education, they'd made better choices

That might well be the case. In my experience, people in countries where university is free frequently complain about life-long students ... people who enjoy being a student so much they basically never leave and live off of public subsidies forever, racking up pointless qualifications. I've met such people too. Countries where taking a course requires gaining a lot of debt don't seem to have that problem, or at least not to anywhere near the same extent.

Re:Buyer's Remorse: High Debt and Low Pay Leave Some College... by wpietri on Friday May 31, 2019 @11:43AM (#20061916)
Sure, it might be the case. But given that we're talking about how even with debt bondage people aren't making good choices, there's reason to think it's no better.
Re:Buyer's Remorse: High Debt and Low Pay Leave Some College... by amalcon on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @03:14PM (#20044178)
What part of this is actually different than a traditional market? Government involvement does not preclude the use of market techniques. In this case, the government is just an individual player with weird values.
Re:Buyer's Remorse: High Debt and Low Pay Leave Some College... by rayiner on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @05:13PM (#20045565)
The government controls 75% of the supply (most students go to public colleges). Government employees engage in a massive sustained ad campaign targeted at impressionable teenagers to juice up demand. Then the government issues 92% of all the loans used to pay for the education. The government isn't just "involved" it's deeply embedded on the supply side, demand side, and the middle.
Re:Buyer's Remorse: High Debt and Low Pay Leave Some College... by amalcon on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @06:33PM (#20046337)
The supply/demand/finance angles are all different governments, though (state/local/federal). It's incorrect to attribute loan issuance and college administration to the same entity, because the federal government and the government of e.g. California are not the same entity.

Also, running an ad campaign is not usually considered "deeply embedded on the ... demand side". Coca-Cola has certainly run massive ad campaigns, but it would be weird to say they're running the demand side of the beverage market.

Re:Buyer's Remorse: High Debt and Low Pay Leave Some College... by LanceH on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @03:41PM (#20044474)
A private loan can be discharged.
Re:Buyer's Remorse: High Debt and Low Pay Leave Some College... by TheOtherHobbes on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @12:46PM (#20042423)
The "market" invented the student loan business - as a vector for short-term profit created by moving wealth from one segment of the population to another while adding nothing of real value.

What are the odds the "loan market" will blow up and need a public bail-out, which will be turn out to be vastly more expensive for tax payers than the free fee and maintenance grants provided by other countries?

Re:Buyer's Remorse: High Debt and Low Pay Leave Some College... by vonmoltke on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @01:03PM (#20042627)
> What are the odds the "loan market" will blow up and need a public bail-out, which will be turn out to be vastly more expensive for tax payers than the free fee and maintenance grants provided by other countries?

Virtually zero, because almost all student loan debt is already held by the Department of Education. There is no "loan market" to speak of.

Re:Buyer's Remorse: High Debt and Low Pay Leave Some College... by repolfx on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @03:23PM (#20044267)
You can also see that as meaning the odds are 100% that it'll need a public bail-out - it'll just be a budget transfer to or writeoff for the DoE instead of a bail-out of private sector lenders. Depends how you define 'bail out' :)

That said I'm not sure how a loan writeoff is more expensive than just paying the fees outright. Presumably public subsidy is always going to be more expensive than a student loan system.

Re:Buyer's Remorse: High Debt and Low Pay Leave Some College... by vonmoltke on Thursday May 30, 2019 @11:58AM (#20052491)
There is no definition of "bail out" that is applicable to an organization simply shuffling money around its own budget.