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Re:French economist scours spreadsheets to find secret offsh... by chongli on Thursday May 23, 2019 @06:03PM (#19996478)
There are some freeriders out there but the majority did put extreme amounts of energy to get to the point where they can make lots of money and that can't be said about everyone.

Did Jeff Bezos put in a million times as much effort as a typical minimum wage worker?

The reason why it's fair to make Jeff pay way more taxes than the average person is because he benefits way more from public services than the average person. Where would Amazon be without public roads, electricity, or water services?

You can perform this exercise with any big company. The idea that an entrepreneur builds a billion dollar business entirely on their own and so they deserve all of the wealth produced is the most pernicious idea in our societies today. Unfortunately, as the Monopoly study showed [1], this idea may be universal to humans who obtain an advantage.

[1] https://tedsummaries.com/2014/09/05/paul-piff-does-money-mak...

Re:French economist scours spreadsheets to find secret offsh... by mrep on Thursday May 23, 2019 @07:09PM (#19996938)
> Did Jeff Bezos put in a million times as much effort as a typical minimum wage worker?

No, but he did make a million times more risky bet than the typical minimum wage worker. He quit a lucrative job at a financial company to start a company where he owned 100% of nothing and he has held onto that stock for 23 years. Common financial wisdom is to diversify your investments but instead, he took a massive pay decrease to start a company in the hopes that the stock would one day pay off, then held onto the stock of his company and led it to the massive valuation it currently has. He could have cashed out at any time but he didn't because our system rewards those who take risks/keep investing.

If you massively taxed outsized earnings and/or capped it, he probably would have never even started the company because why would you take the extreme risk of doing a startup when most of them fail? He probably would have just stayed at the financial company and if he did do the startup, then he probably would have cashed out when the taxes/cap got too large and retired instead of working to continuously increase the company's value which increases everyone's standard of living.

Re:French economist scours spreadsheets to find secret offsh... by aljp on Thursday May 23, 2019 @09:33PM (#19997714)
A million times more risky bet? By what measure? The risk to his livelyhood? His savings? That kind of hyperbole might help your argument, but I think it's wrong in a few regards. If he came from a lucrative job in the finance industry that means that he had a position to fall back on if it didn't work out, he would have had plenty of capital to bankroll his business without hefty, high-interest loans. His interest on those loans would almost definitely be lower because he is less risk to the lender. He would also have had connections in the business lending industry but I think that is getting too specific for my argument.

Compare this to someone who has a background in retail or a warehouse worker, the personal and financial risk of starting a business is arguably higher. In order to accrue the savings to start their business they would have to work far more hours, and if it doesn't work out they may never have the opportunity to try again. They have less job security if the business fails. They have less savings, and may completely deplete their savings and incur a large debt if it doesn't work out.

I'm not saying that Jeff Bezos didn't earn some of his keep, or that Amazon doesn't provide a lot of service, but I would say the risk vs reward of his business is atronomical compared to the average business startup. The entire idea that he took a risker bet starting a business than a minimum wage worker is, I think, totally wrong, it's utterly ridiculous, and lacks any perspective on what minimum wage workers have to stress about.

Re:French economist scours spreadsheets to find secret offsh... by johntiger1 on Thursday May 23, 2019 @11:47PM (#19998299)
Exactly, we should just be upfront when we say that his success is due to both luck and hard work. Hard work is a given, and many people do that. But to really succeed you need a good dose of luck as well, and luck is not something you "work" for
Re:French economist scours spreadsheets to find secret offsh... by cosmodisk on Friday May 24, 2019 @03:16AM (#19999204)
Hard work is the most idiotic concept ever. If one works hard,he usually stays in the same place for 30 years. One needs to work smart,not hard...
Re:French economist scours spreadsheets to find secret offsh... by chongli on Thursday May 23, 2019 @09:11PM (#19997595)
If you massively taxed outsized earnings and/or capped it, he probably would have never even started the company because why would you take the extreme risk of doing a startup when most of them fail?

What is the marginal utility of another billion dollars to someone who is already a billionaire? What motivates Jeff to get out of bed in the morning?

The answer: winning.

Guys like Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk are the business equivalent of professional athletes. The money they continue to make is only a trophy at this point. To them, the real prize is to enter new markets and succeed, challenging and disrupting the status quo.

Re:French economist scours spreadsheets to find secret offsh... by soVeryTired on Thursday May 23, 2019 @07:49PM (#19997157)
> No, but he did make a million times more risky bet than the typical minimum wage worker.

He took a risk in absolute monetary terms perhaps, but not risk in terms of consequence. Having spent a few years being relatively high up in DE Shaw, the worst that might have happened to him if his business failed is that he'd move to a smaller house.

Contrast that situation with someone who might struggle to make rent if their business failed, and tell me who's really taking the bigger risk.

Re:French economist scours spreadsheets to find secret offsh... by mrep on Thursday May 23, 2019 @08:54PM (#19997507)
How would Jeff bezos be in a better situation than some small business owner if both companies failed?
Re:French economist scours spreadsheets to find secret offsh... by ylmm on Friday May 24, 2019 @12:43AM (#19998550)
How would he not? Are you really arguing that someone with D.E. Shaw and Princeton on his resume would be in the same position as, in your words, a "typical minimum wage worker"?

Even ignoring the signaling value of D.E. Shaw and Princeton, are you arguing that the wealth he'd accumulated in his career up till that point is comparable to that of the "typical minimum wage worker"?

Then are you arguing that a hedge fund manager and a "typical minimum wage worker" face the same relative risk when they invest the same amount of money? In other words, are you saying that someone who has 110,000 dollars in savings and someone who has 11,000 dollars in savings face the same risk if they both invest 10,000 dollars?

Re:French economist scours spreadsheets to find secret offsh... by sonnyblarney on Thursday May 23, 2019 @10:17PM (#19997926)
"he did make a million times more risky bet than the typical minimum wage worker"

No, definitely not.

The rhetoric here is missing the nature of power: power gives leverage and enables entities to extract money and surpluses. Knowledge and talent is just one means to power. A more common means is patronage. The highest earning individuals are generally more talented and intelligent, but not that much more so.

Major corps have access to information, systems, lobbying that individuals do not have, any 'salary negotiation' is like playing poker against the house: the tables are tilted.

I think European taxation is excessive after income, payroll and VAT it's well beyond 50% for many income earners (though they get healthcare from that), there's no reason that those earning $1M a year can't pay the tax rates on the books, and opt to hide their money offshore.

Especially in US/Canada where taxes aren't crazy, there's really no excuse for these folks. It's just criminal.

Re:French economist scours spreadsheets to find secret offsh... by aczerepinski on Saturday May 25, 2019 @11:32AM (#20009565)
"He did make a million times more risky bet than the typical minimum wage worker"

What a ridiculous statement! A bet one million times riskier than the average person makes would be one where there's a 1% chance of achieving great wealth and a 99% chance of everybody you love dying immediately.

An already affluent person starting a business is not that risky.

Re:French economist scours spreadsheets to find secret offsh... by perfmode on Thursday May 23, 2019 @07:41PM (#19997106)
> have never even started the company because why would you take the extreme risk of doing a startup when most of them fail? He

“To change the world”

Re:French economist scours spreadsheets to find secret offsh... by herennow88 on Thursday May 23, 2019 @08:52PM (#19997495)
An already affluent guy convinced affluent investors to fund a technology company which the social meme was going on and on about being the next big thing.

I find it hard to believe there was any sort of real “risk” to Bezos future ability to earn a more than average wage.

It’s an information and networking game. You can say there’s some sort of numerical or quantifiable risk. But I suspect Bezos status pre-Amazon, in an early 90’s economy, with a very different wealth equality and cost of living scenario for the masses, he was well buffered from any long term ruin.

Just consider how much it’s changed: 22 people invested $50k according to Google. What’s that get you in 1994? My after tax take home is $110ish/year depending on bonus. My purchase power is a fraction of what it was a generation ago. I should be taking home $500k/yr to enjoy the same purchase power as someone making $110k in the 80s. And this is “normal”, we’re told.

Most people don’t even get anywhere near the network access and education he had.

The notion that we exist in a meritocracy is mind bogglingly engrained in the masses. Bezos earned every cent, it seems. They pay economists a lot to measure very carefully and confirm as much.

Bezos is not that good and that special, and took very little real risk. Society is rewarding him so much because that’s what society is told is correct.

Re:French economist scours spreadsheets to find secret offsh... by mrep on Thursday May 23, 2019 @09:04PM (#19997564)
> I find it hard to believe there was any sort of real “risk” to Bezos future ability to earn a more than average wage.

You are ignoring opportunity costs [0]. He quit a highly lucrative job in finance to attempt a startup where he probably payed himself like 1/10th the wages of his old job during the initial years while he established his business.

With like 90% of startups failing [1], that is a massive risk in the hope of future stock worth for decreased current wages.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

[1]: https://medium.com/swlh/why-90-of-startups-fail-and-what-to-...

Re:French economist scours spreadsheets to find secret offsh... by herennow88 on Thursday May 23, 2019 @09:33PM (#19997716)
You’re ignoring the boring but more important human aspect for abstraction: he was capable of getting such a job once and was well connected to a couple dozen people that could toss $50k/each at him on a pipe dream.

If it failed, he would have had plenty of options relative to the average worker.

Re:French economist scours spreadsheets to find secret offsh... by mrep on Thursday May 23, 2019 @11:13PM (#19998164)
And he lost out on hundreds of thousands of dollars of real income while pursuing said startup. In his case, the stock that he created ended up being worth way more but for 90% of companies, that stock will be worth nothing.
Re:French economist scours spreadsheets to find secret offsh... by conanbatt on Thursday May 23, 2019 @07:54PM (#19997187)
Effort != value.

A single person could discover the cure to cancer tomorrow, and he would save billions of lives, even though he has the human labor of one.

Re:French economist scours spreadsheets to find secret offsh... by DoreenMichele on Thursday May 23, 2019 @08:25PM (#19997360)
As someone getting well with an incurable genetic disorder while the world calls me crazy and generally tries to tell me to STFU because I must be making that up, I find comments like this ironic at best.

Good luck getting the word out if one person solved it rather than a member of a team in a large lab and yadda. More likely outcome: The "one guy" who cures cancer will be written off as a member of the lunatic fringe and have endless doors slammed shut in his face.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis

Re:French economist scours spreadsheets to find secret offsh... by janj on Thursday May 23, 2019 @08:08PM (#19997276)
I would guess the person who discovers a cure like this will do so on top of a bunch of preceding human labor, maybe even publicly funded.
Re:French economist scours spreadsheets to find secret offsh... by conanbatt on Thursday May 23, 2019 @08:17PM (#19997322)
That puts societies free riders really into debt
Re:French economist scours spreadsheets to find secret offsh... by chongli on Thursday May 23, 2019 @08:33PM (#19997396)
How would you calculate the value (to society) of Amazon? A lot of small businesses have folded as a result of pressure from that behemoth. Yes, consumers have benefited from lower prices, but the total value is unclear. There is considerable debate in antitrust circles concerning what to do about Amazon [1].

[1] https://www.yalelawjournal.org/pdf/e.710.Khan.805_zuvfyyeh.p...

Re:French economist scours spreadsheets to find secret offsh... by conanbatt on Thursday May 23, 2019 @09:22PM (#19997656)
How many people would be sad if amazon closed up shop tomorrow?
Re:French economist scours spreadsheets to find secret offsh... by asynchrony on Thursday May 23, 2019 @08:05PM (#19997248)
What is the value of the society that raised him and all the research and effort that came before him?
Re:French economist scours spreadsheets to find secret offsh... by conanbatt on Thursday May 23, 2019 @08:07PM (#19997267)
Society's profit is cancer is cured, why wouldn't that suffice.
Re:French economist scours spreadsheets to find secret offsh... by DesiLurker on Thursday May 23, 2019 @09:42PM (#19997766)
Well that depends on what he wants to charge for the drug now doesn't it? and dont give me some free market BS because there is very little free market left in pharma pricing. its just extortion by making artificial monopolies plain and simple.
Re:French economist scours spreadsheets to find secret offsh... by mrep on Thursday May 23, 2019 @11:04PM (#19998121)
Yes, patents give companies monapolies for a limited time but I don't see how a company having a monopoly on a drug for a limited time makes anyone worse as the alternative is to just not have the drug at all.

And if your argument is that the government should fund all drug research, realize that they are fully capable of doing so and then patenting the drug and giving it out for free in our current system. Thus, both funding models can work in cohesion.

Re:French economist scours spreadsheets to find secret offsh... by conanbatt on Thursday May 23, 2019 @09:55PM (#19997832)
> its just extortion by making artificial monopolies plain and simple.

I agree, that is done by the state. They put the rules.

Re:French economist scours spreadsheets to find secret offsh... by Theodores on Thursday May 23, 2019 @09:03PM (#19997554)
Why do we tax individuals in the first place? It goes back to history, there was a time when kings got their money from their estates as well as from prize money. But, the wars were not paying well so they would get some poor souls to be taxmen and to demand hard currency from peasants that weren't even on the monetary system as they lived off the land. In the UK the minority who the king would bully into collecting the taxes would be the Jewish one.

There was a time when it was considered none of the government's business to know how much people earned, hence taxes on fireplaces and windows. If you had a fireplace then you were probably a family unit and needed to pay up, if you had two fireplaces then you were a bit rich and could pay up double.

We take for granted so much of the tax system that we do not question it, there are also entrenched left wing and right wing viewpoints.

When it comes to value added tax, a.k.a. sales tax, we let businesses off but make sure individuals pay. It is all skewed in favour of capitalism rather than the individual.

Clearly a company can move to wherever it wants to avoid taxes. Individuals don't have quite the same freedom unless they are of the capitalist company owning class.

So we need to stop confusing individuals - businessmen - with businesses. Bezos and Amazon are not one and the same. If Amazon paid all its taxes then Bezos the individual as well as all Amazon employees should be afforded zero income tax and have zero motivation to squirrel gains away in some tax haven.

We also have a slight problem of rents and property being too expensive with property being insufficiently taxed. The whole system is designed to screw the little guy over with the corporations getting a free ride.