Re:Notifying administrators about unhashed password storage
by alexbecker on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @08:33PM
(#19976596)
It's worth pointing out that while modern hash functions are believed to be infeasible to unscramble (technically, to require exponential time), none have been proven so. In fact, proving the mere existence of such a function would prove P!=NP.
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Re:Notifying administrators about unhashed password storage
by fiddlerwoaroof on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @09:00PM
(#19976775)
Wouldn’t it prove the opposite namely that P equals NP?
Re:Notifying administrators about unhashed password storage
by Thorrez on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @10:49PM
(#19977299)
No, if you can prove that a secure hash function exists, then you have proved that P != NP. (This is what alexbecker said.)
If you can prove P = NP, then you have proved that no secure hash functions exist. (This is the contrapositive.)
Re:Notifying administrators about unhashed password storage
by repsilat on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @11:10PM
(#19977381)
For convenient definitions of "secure" :-). "Unscrambling" a particular function could be in P but still effectively intractable.
(For a fun angle not related to complexity, the algorithm itself could be so large that it wouldn't fit in the observable universe without breaking the Bekenstein bound.)
And it has been a long time since I did proof theory, but is there the possibility of a non-constructive proof but no actual examples no matter how long you keep enumerating algorithms? Or a non-constructive proof, but no constructive proof? In that case there could be a "perfect heuristic"...
Re:Notifying administrators about unhashed password storage
by fiddlerwoaroof on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @12:41AM
(#19977824)
Oops, this is what I get for not reading carefully :) But this is interesting: it implies, if I'm not mistaken, it implies that we haven't ever proven that a function takes exponential time, just that we haven't found any algorithms for certain problems faster than exponential time. I hadn't considered P != NP this way before...
Re:Notifying administrators about unhashed password storage
by gpm on Wednesday May 22, 2019 @01:05AM
(#19977947)
No, we know that P != EXP_TIME, by the time hierarchy theorem - i.e. we know some problems (and we do have concrete examples) take exponential time. What we don't know is that there exists a problem that requires exponential time (or otherwise greater than polynomial) where we can create a proof that a answer is correct which is checkable in polynomial time.
Re:Notifying administrators about unhashed password storage
by w8rbt on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @09:45PM
(#19976996)
I think you mean... P = NP. Which is very unlikely as we could do away with mathematicians if that were true.
Re:Notifying administrators about unhashed password storage
by jrochkind1 on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @10:17PM
(#19977148)
Seems unlikely, but not proven. That's the point. I dunno about 'do away with mathematicians'.
Re:Notifying administrators about unhashed password storage
by fiddlerwoaroof on Tuesday May 21, 2019 @10:30PM
(#19977223)
Yeah, I just thought that showing how to solve a best-case exponential function in polynomial kind was the sort of thing that would prove P = NP (I dictated this before, so NP came out as MP)