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Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by hedvig on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @12:54PM (#19921326)
The more I look at things as I age, the more I see market based solutions as only benefiting the supplier and always hurting the consumer.
Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by wpietri on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @01:19PM (#19921625)
Honestly, it's not clear to me that most "pro-market" advocates even understand markets. They work best when purchasers have many options, clear information, easy switching, and equal power to sellers. But at least in the US, most of the "pro-market" voices in practice seem to be in favor of oligopoly and the absolute right of businesses to exploit information, wealth, and power asymmetries.

It makes me a bit bonkers, because well-designed markets can do an amazing job solving optimization problems.

Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by TallGuyShort on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @01:28PM (#19921715)
In the US, I think one problem is have too much mixing of public and private. We give the public sector a lot of decision making power relatively free of consequences, and leave massive profit opportunities for anyone in the private sector who manages to buy enough influence. Healthcare was far from a free market already before ObamaCare. But if we're going to regulate it as heavily as we do, I think we need to just step up and socialize it entirely.
Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by jorblumesea on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @03:11PM (#19922677)
I think the issue is political. Completely socializing it is still a hot potato for many, but healthcare as an industry needs to have stringent regulations in general. For example, strong rules around patient rights and patient privacy. But "socialized medicine" is a really dirty world in many parts of the country.

So you have a highly regulated free market that is neither a free market nor does it have the advantages of complete regulation similar to Europe. It just ends up being a really inefficient system.

It's a very US problem where we somehow managed to get the worst of both worlds.

Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by bogomipz on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @02:28PM (#19922290)
>"We give the public sector a lot of decision making power relatively free of consequences, and leave massive profit opportunities for anyone in the private sector who manages to buy enough influence."

What would be an example of giving the public sector much decision making power "relatively free from consequence?" Would this be the FCC in this context? I ask because I'm genuinely interested in the point your making. Is there a relationship between this and and opportunistic private sector? Would this be the cell carriers in this context?

Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by TallGuyShort on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @03:00PM (#19922579)
I had actually entirely forgotten I was still on the FCC thread after reading the comment I replied to, but sure, the FCC is also a good example of this. Take net neutrality for instance. That whole debate was centered on what the FCC would do - very little talk about legislative action. It is de-facto up to one agency that answers to an executive with all-time-low levels of public confidence, that also has an abnormally strong reputation for being in bed with industry. The current chairman has joked about it and been investigated for corruption, the prior chairman was formerly a major lobbyist for telco. There's other examples, like the revolving door between the FDA and Monsanto's board (I'm like 90% sure I'm correctly remembering the agency and the company - I'd double-check myself but I need to get back to a work issue and wanted to answer you soon-ish).
Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by maxhedrome on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @01:43PM (#19921865)
Nah, we just need to regulate prices, and disband insurance entirely.

Trump forced all hospitals to be transparent about their prices, there’s no reason on this planet that the shit they’re peddling should cost the amount it does, and if the overhead is on the hospital then we need to regulate further up the ladder. The pharmaceutical companies and suppliers who are basically extorting everyone.

Over regulation is a bad thing, but some regulation, especially with an industry as corrupt as American healthcare is good.

Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by Wheaties466 on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @03:00PM (#19922576)
Unfortunately completely socializing the healthcare system would tank the economy thats why no serious person in washington is pro universal healthcare.
Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by ranie93 on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @03:26PM (#19922831)
"a new study [0] from the Political Economy Research Institute (PERI) at the University of Massachusetts-Amherst finds that single-payer health care will save the US $5.1 trillion over a decade while drastically cutting working-class Americans’ health spending." [1]

"Blahous’s paper[2], titled “The Costs of a National Single-Payer Healthcare System,” estimates total national health expenditures. Even though his cost-saving estimates are more conservative than others, he acknowledges that Sanders’s “Medicare for All” plan would yield a $482 billion reduction in health care spending, and over $1.5 trillion in administrative savings, for a total of $2 trillion less in overall health care expenditures between 2022 and 2031, compared to current spending." [3]

[0] https://www.peri.umass.edu/publication/item/1127-economic-an...

[1] https://www.jacobinmag.com/2018/12/medicare-for-all-study-pe...

[2] https://www.mercatus.org/system/files/blahous-costs-medicare...

[3] https://theintercept.com/2018/07/30/medicare-for-all-cost-he...

Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by Wheaties466 on Thursday May 16, 2019 @09:19AM (#19928740)
I have no doubt it would save money. But my point was that healthcare companies would no longer be seeing that 5.1 trillion dollars and as a result those companies would lose value and tank the economy.

I just counted 62 Healthcare companies in the S&P 500. 5.1 trillion of lost revenue to those companies would be detrimental to the economy.

Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by ranie93 on Thursday May 16, 2019 @03:34PM (#19932237)
My own back of the napkin calculation:

5.1T / 10 Years = .51T / Year

Current US Stock Market Cap: 153% of 21T = 53T [0][1]

.51T of 53T = 0.9%

For reference; the 2000s bubble had the stock market decrease by 36% over 3 years, the 2008 bubble 45% over 2 years [0].

I'd say "tank the economy" is an overstatement. I'm glad to be shown otherwise _with sources_

[0]https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DDDM01USA156NWDB

[1]https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GDP

Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by Wheaties466 on Friday May 17, 2019 @04:41PM (#19943369)
I'll be the first the admit this is an opinion i've completely come up with it by myself with no research or statistics to prove other wise.
Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by linuxftw on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @04:38PM (#19923509)
Studies like these are worse than worthless. Just look at any recent major public works project for an example of cost overruns.

Here's how we could lower costs for Americans overnight: Allow importation of prescription medicines.

Medicare for all will lead to doctors for none. It's really hard to get appointments from places that accept Medicare, it's just not worth the hassle for many doctors to deal with them.

Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by notfromhere on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @05:20PM (#19923882)
"This study is worthless, but here's my unsubstantiated opinion instead" is a weird argument.
Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by shstalwart on Thursday May 16, 2019 @02:18AM (#19926612)
Not really. It's pretty evident at this point that most publications are basically worthless.
Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by notfromhere on Thursday May 16, 2019 @02:48PM (#19931771)
You've said the same thing with zero evidence, again.
Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by linuxftw on Thursday May 16, 2019 @04:02PM (#19932525)
Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by ranie93 on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @04:41PM (#19923550)
[citation needed]
Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by learc83 on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @04:16PM (#19923290)
Many countries have universal healthcare without a completely socialized healthcare system.

There are many serious people in Washington talking about the universal healthcare, just not many talking about government takeover of providers.

Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by jimhefferon on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @03:28PM (#19922849)
You would not call Bernie Sanders's plan socializing the healthcare system? (Serious question.)
Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by amanaplanacanal on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @04:09PM (#19923219)
As far as I know, people are only talking about socializing the health insurance system, not the actual health care providers.
Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by neltnerb on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @08:27PM (#19925083)
I think the two are pretty closely coupled, if you have a giant insurance provider then they can dictate prices -- if the pharmaceutical companies haven't purchased the agency that does it, of course. It seems to work well enough elsewhere anyway.
Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by RNCTech on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @01:52PM (#19921956)
You are one of the few people I have ever seen articulate the problem online. Free marketeers are always conflating a free market with an efficient market. We are aiming for efficient not necessarily free. The two only overlap as you described--basically when all participants have no power and good information. Those circumstances are rarely present.

Another analogy I like to give blind conservatives has to do with referees in their favorite sport. Yes, you don't love referees, but when they are doing a good job and seem to be calling it squarely, you know the overall game is better for have their involvement.

It helps but orthodoxy is hard to break.

Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by ranie93 on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @03:47PM (#19923033)
Some additional resources:

Efficient Market Hypothesis[0]: "The efficient-market hypothesis was developed by Eugene Fama who argued that stocks always trade at their fair value, making it impossible for investors to either purchase undervalued stocks or sell stocks for inflated prices. As such, it should be impossible to outperform the overall market through expert stock selection or market timing, and that the only way an investor can possibly obtain higher returns is by chance or by purchasing riskier investments."

Investment theory of party competition [1]: "[...] if voters cannot bear the cost of becoming informed about public affairs they have little hope of successfully supervising government."

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficient-market_hypothesis

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investment_theory_of_party_com...

Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by wpietri on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @07:55PM (#19924936)
Not sure why you're getting downvoted; I agree. One can't have all the freedoms, as they conflict. E.g., my freedom to burn things for fun may clash with other people's freedom to own a house. Free markets are very free on certain dimensions, while very constrained on others.

As an example, I used to work for financial traders. The exchanges were in key ways extremely free markets; anybody with the dough could buy the commodities they wanted quickly, cheaply, and easily. But the exchanges self-regulated very strongly. It was very clear to everybody at the company that making an exchange mad was Very Bad; rules had to be followed. And even getting allowed to trade on the exchange was a difficult and complicated process.

Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by duxup on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @12:58PM (#19921376)
I really wish there w as a party interested in free markets and fostering competition.

Rather the GoP whose rhetoric talks about free markets, is really just all about picking winners themselves and legislating profits for their allies.

Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by joshAg on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @01:26PM (#19921700)
It's the same thing.

In order to create any free market and foster competition, an entity has to decide and then enforce the rules for the market, which allows that entity to pick a winner by the rules it choose to write and then enforce.

Plus, in mature markets, fostering competition is antithetical to maintaining the "freeness" of the market, because it requires punishing the "winners" in order to ensure competitors, by things like breaking up competitors that are able to leverage winning in one area to compete and then win in another area (ie antitrust/antimonopoly), invalidating patents/trade secrets/intellectual property/etc. when ever something is so dominant that without access to it no one can compete, and limiting how competitors can compete (eg preventing them from limiting how purchasers can use their products).

And of course, every decision made for how to implement the kinds of issues outlined in the above paragraph is an opportunity to pick who wins, too.

Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by duxup on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @01:49PM (#19921919)
I don't buy into the implication that any decision is picking winners the outcomes don't have to be that absolute.
Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by joshAg on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @02:21PM (#19922216)
Every decision about what to enforce and when has a set of competitors that benefit from that decision and a set of competitors that are disadvantaged from that decision.

And over time even a single, small benefit can be enough to guarantee a specific rational actor will win out over its competitors.

Certainly not in all cases, but if the issue you have is that individual decisions aren't enough to pick a winner, no matter how large/important, then change the last paragraph to

>>> And of course, every decision made for how to implement the kinds of issues outlined in the above paragraph is an opportunity to pick whom to give an advantage over their competitors, too.

And this doesn't even begin to consider the issue that since the mechanism for making and enforcing the rules exists within the system of rules it creates, both fostering competition and enforcing a free market give opportunities for competitors to buy rules and/or enforcement of rules that benefit them at the expense of competitors, either directly or indirectly.

Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by duxup on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @04:13PM (#19923256)
It's possible, but I'm still not sure I buy into the idea that a given decision that might result in someone failing is picking winners exactly.

I can say in a given industry they can't pull some bait and switch... a company that relies on that tacit could go out of business, is that picking winners or regulating poor behavior?

Like anything working to maintain some level of competitiveness would be like hitting a moving target, you'll have to change what you do, address barrier of entry issues one day, who knows what next.

Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by joshAg on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @06:37PM (#19924477)
In the extreme form of a free market (some would call that 'in a truly free market'), there is no such thing as regulating out bad behavior because, that is a limitation on actors' freedom within that market. As the view goes, even if everyone in the market agreed on what was bad and how to enforce the regulation, it would be wholely unnecessary to actually regulate such bad action, because all participants are rational actors who will naturally punish that bad behavior themselves by preferring a competitor over the bad actor.

And yes, regulating poor behavior is absolutely picking winners/picking losers/picking specific companies to disadvantage/advantage, and not just because of issues with uneven enforcement. Determining which behaviors are disallowed and which behaviors will be policed by "natural market forces", especially when talking about modifying rules for a preexisting market, means picking winners/losers/who gets advantaged/disadvantaged. This is why encouraging/fostering competition is antithetical to making/maintaining a free market.

Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by the_pwner224 on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @01:05PM (#19921464)
The market works pretty often when it is fair. The cell phone market is not, at least in the US. The providers maintain high costs of switching via contracts and phone leases and radio fragmentation (Verizon/Sprint/TMo/ATT use different frequencies, all but the highest end new phones generally only work on one or two) and carrier locking. If I could just put a different SIM in my phone anytime to switch carriers, there would be much more space for good carriers to exist - the cost of switching would just be spending an hour at the store porting your number.
Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by anthonybsd on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @02:00PM (#19922022)
Don't forget coverage issues. IPhones have been worldphones (i.e. works on every carrier) for the past 6+ years. Contracts and termination fees have been phased out for most people for 4 and all people for 2 years. Yet in my case despite paying full price for the latest IPhone I'm stuck with Verizon. Why? Because in one key location where I live it's the only carrier with data coverage.
Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by gnicholas on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @03:27PM (#19922837)
Try xfinity mobile. They use Verizon's network and you pay $12/gb. You can byod or buy one through them.
Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by the_pwner224 on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @08:30PM (#19925102)
They are good for iPhones but not great otherwise. My parents switched to them 6 months ago. They don't allow you to bring another Android phone (yet), so I had to switch from my amazing Galaxy S5 to a S9 purchased through them. Aside from being a major hardware downgrade for my purposes, all their phones have locked bootloaders so you can't mess with them at all (aside from `pm uninstall`ing most bloatware).

You also can't bring a non-iOS/Android phone to their network (aside from iPhones, all devices must be purchased through them).

I plan on buying a Librem 5 when they are released; I will have to switch carriers and pay more every month, but freedom is worth the price.

But for my parents, paying just $7/line in taxes and then 20-30 dollars per month for data is well worth it, even after factoring in the expensive upgrades from the old S8+/Note 7 to their S9+/Note 9 (and yes, the S8+/Note 7 would have worked perfectly fine on their network if not for their asinine restrictions).

Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by dd36 on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @12:56PM (#19921359)
It’s not really even a market-based solution unless there are blockers competing for your business.
Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by kodablah on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @01:39PM (#19921835)
> I see market based solutions as only benefiting the supplier and always hurting the consumer

The more I age, the more I recognize these things aren't absolute and recognize that the levels of benefit/harm are often nuanced to specific situations and wouldn't use such a broad brush strokes of "only" and "always" (as opposed to recognizing a pattern).

Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by koboll on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @01:07PM (#19921503)
The house always wins.
Re:FCC Chairman Proposes Robocall Blocking by Default by autokad on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @09:17PM (#19925321)
we dont need to have a pro market or pro socialist conversation. we all agree robocalling needs to stop.

Make it illegal, make it illegal for telecoms to allow it.