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Re:CO2 in the atmosphere just exceeded 415ppm for the first ... by TeMPOraL on Monday May 13, 2019 @07:14AM (#19898034)
That's another thing where I believe "those currently engaged in the cultural revolution" often get confused. Not all stuff bundled together under "problems with environment" is created equal.

Container ships are a problem because they usually run on ridiculously dirty fuel, which ends up polluting the ocean. But they're also extremely energy-efficient on a mass/distance basis. A saner world would have them use cleaner fuel[0].

Cars are a problem because at the scale they're used, they're both significant contributor to global warming and inefficient, energy-wise. Electrifying land transportation would fix the inefficiency and significantly reduce the carbon footprint. Powering the new electric fleet with green energy[1] would finally kill the emission issues.

Plastic straws, plastic packaging and other consumer disposables are a problem[2] because the plastic ends up in oceans, where it gets broken by UV into microplastics which then end up back in the food chain. Beyond that, it's mostly a sad thing to see. Energy and emissions-wise, plastic disposables are much smaller problem than other uses of fossil fuels, and sometimes they're likely better than the reusable alternatives proposed. But it's still so fucking sad to see so much garbage existing only as vehicle for marketing.

IMO people need to stop bundling these problems together. Even though they're all related, energy security != global warming != poisons in food chain != ethical considerations about animals. Those are all separate problems, with separate sets of solutions, and quite honestly, different prioritization.

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[0] - My utopia would have nuclear-powered cargo ships as permanent global infrastructure, essentially treated as virtual conveyor belts.

[1] - Renewables or nuclear.

[2] - And we aren't even sure yet how big a problem this is. AFAIK this topic is covered mostly out of quite reasonable abundance of caution - we've noticed plastics showing up where they aren't supposed to. Even though there isn't any clear danger identified yet, history teaches us that human-released chemicals showing up in unexpected places generally don't lead to happy outcomes.

Re:CO2 in the atmosphere just exceeded 415ppm for the first ... by Scarblac on Monday May 13, 2019 @08:02AM (#19898393)
> Container ships are a problem because they usually run on ridiculously dirty fuel, which ends up polluting the ocean. But they're also extremely energy-efficient on a mass/distance basis. A saner world would have them use cleaner fuel[0].

One reason that they burn dirty fuel is because we have that fuel, and the way our economy works, it's going to be burned somewhere. Making large ships with engines that can burn that fuel was intended to be a way of having the air pollution be produced away from inhabited land.

Having the ships work with cleaner fuel means the dirty fuel will be burned somewhere else, without further changes.

But I agree with your main point -- "sustainability" attracts so much momentum that people try to frame everything under that umbrella. E.g. suffering of animals raised for food production is a problem, but even less related to the things you mention. Still often seen as part of the same agenda as reducing our CO2 output.

Re:CO2 in the atmosphere just exceeded 415ppm for the first ... by dwaltrip on Monday May 13, 2019 @10:19AM (#19899468)
I don't know much about the dirty fuel, but if it's so bad we could tax its use such that no one wants to burn it.
Re:CO2 in the atmosphere just exceeded 415ppm for the first ... by pas on Sunday May 19, 2019 @06:18PM (#19955891)
Bunker fuel, very much the leftover after the crude oil distillation. Full of sulfur and other nasty stuff.

Anyway, if there were sufficient political will to do things, taxes would solve this shit overnight.

Re:CO2 in the atmosphere just exceeded 415ppm for the first ... by Teever on Monday May 13, 2019 @05:31PM (#19904190)
Can't the fuel be cleaned?
Re:CO2 in the atmosphere just exceeded 415ppm for the first ... by Kye on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @09:26AM (#19909219)
Bunker oil is what's left after producing all the other oil products.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_oil

>> "Small molecules like those in propane, naphtha, gasoline for cars, and jet fuel have relatively low boiling points, and they are removed at the start of the fractional distillation process. Heavier petroleum products like diesel fuel and lubricating oil are much less volatile and distill out more slowly, while bunker oil is literally the bottom of the barrel; in oil distilling, the only things denser than bunker fuel are carbon black feedstock and bituminous residue (asphalt), which is used for paving roads and sealing roofs. "

Re:CO2 in the atmosphere just exceeded 415ppm for the first ... by Teever on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @02:09PM (#19912134)
It can't be cracked economically?

I'm asking because I only have a passing familiarity with how oil production works.

Re:CO2 in the atmosphere just exceeded 415ppm for the first ... by Kye on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @02:51PM (#19912643)
Based on my (limited) understanding, there's no cleaning to be done. The kind of oil they burn in cargo ships is what's left after cleaning|distilling.

>> "It can't be cracked economically?"

This trash oil is produced anyway. There's no way to not make it and still make the less dirty kinds since it's what's left at the end of the process.

I see two possible solutions:

1: Invent commercial fusion reactors and burn it there. I don't know if this would produce less CO2.

2: Find something else to do with the trash oil that's less polluting. Markets are pretty good at finding uses for things, so there may just not be anything else.

Gasoline was a waste product until internal combustion engines came along. Trash oil probably occupied a similar status as waste until someone figured out it worked in ships. If trash oil were no longer economical to burn on ships, they would probably dump it in international waters instead unless some better use was incentivized.

The US and probably other countries pay farmers to destroy some crops to keep it profitable enough to make farming a viable industry. Farmers would sell all their crops without government intervention, driving profits below a sustainable level. They wouldn't just trash it otherwise.

Cargo ship owners are probably the only people who want the leftover oil. The shipping industry burns the oil industry's trash to make their ships go. Make using it uneconomical, and it gets dumped. That's what happens with byproducts no one wants to buy.

Re:CO2 in the atmosphere just exceeded 415ppm for the first ... by kaybe on Monday May 13, 2019 @09:15AM (#19898909)
I've heard this argument:

It might be a good idea to get people into contact with the smaller problems you mentioned because they are less political and less scary, still somewhat connected and people feel they can make a change. That's more than you get when people shy away instead.

Also, one point of activism is to get people into contact with an issue or a viewpoint so they can get used to the idea slowly, and when the time for changes comes it is familiar and unsurprising. So it's not about changing things right now but to pave the way for change in the future. (Maybe this is obvious, but for me it was a slightly different take of it.)

Re:CO2 in the atmosphere just exceeded 415ppm for the first ... by TeMPOraL on Monday May 13, 2019 @09:58AM (#19899269)
> (Maybe this is obvious, but for me it was a slightly different take of it.)

Not obvious at all. In fact, it's the first time I've encountered this idea. Thanks a lot for writing this. It makes me view some of the activist actions in a different light.

Re:CO2 in the atmosphere just exceeded 415ppm for the first ... by thrower123 on Monday May 13, 2019 @09:20AM (#19898949)
One of the problems is that environmentalists burn so much goodwill and political capital on stupid, low-effectiveness initiatives that cause irritation and inconvenience far greater than their potential positive effects.
Re:CO2 in the atmosphere just exceeded 415ppm for the first ... by jquery on Monday May 13, 2019 @10:47AM (#19899765)
Plastic straw bans are the latest canonical example of this.