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Re:For the first time there's more people worldwide aged 65+... by EthanHeilman on Thursday May 02, 2019 @12:32PM (#19809678)
Population shrinking is a good thing long term.
Re:For the first time there's more people worldwide aged 65+... by merpnderp on Thursday May 02, 2019 @12:38PM (#19809741)
If extraordinary ability is a function of a percentile of the population, then a smaller population will have fewer geniuses and prodigies in art, literature, science, and politics. A smaller population leaves us poorer and less capable. There's no reason our current (or a larger) population isn't sustainable by changing how we generate energy or dispose of waste.
Re:For the first time there's more people worldwide aged 65+... by aylmao on Thursday May 02, 2019 @01:23PM (#19810222)
> If extraordinary ability is a function of a percentile of the population, then a smaller population will have fewer geniuses and prodigies in art, literature, science, and politics

I doubt it is, but if so, and education just "exposes" natural talent, I wouldn't be worried. We already have a lot of natural talent in the developed world that's untapped. India alone should have 4x more geniuses than the USA.

> A smaller population leaves us poorer and less capable.

I'd like to discuss this with HN. Less capable to do what? We won. Nature won't kill us any more, we have no predators, we know how to produce more food than we need [1], transportation is so easy we get access to things from all over the world and communication so seamless we can stay in touch with anyone.

What do we need more people for?

Our largest existential enemy right now is unsustainability.

> There's no reason our current (or a larger) population isn't sustainable by changing how we generate energy or dispose of waste.

I don't think anyone really knows this to be true, and in fact I suspect it might apply to small communities, but not to the world at large.

Even if we could continue growing for now, eventually we'll reach a limit. But in any case, why do we want to keep growing?

[1]: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/world-hunger_n_1463429

Re:For the first time there's more people worldwide aged 65+... by lurquer on Thursday May 02, 2019 @04:24PM (#19812443)
>Our largest existential enemy right now is unsustainability.

When has 'unsustainabilty' ever caused the destruction of a large portion of a human population? Seriously. Can you think of any?

The two existential threats -- the two things that can, have, and will -- wipe out millions are War and Disease.

Everything else -- asteroids, climate change, sustainability -- are speculative. But, evidence-based analysis clearly points to War and Disease.

Re:For the first time there's more people worldwide aged 65+... by Para2016 on Thursday May 02, 2019 @07:23PM (#19813979)
The destruction of the Western Roman Empire due to enormous migrations comes to mind. Those migrations were due to 'unsustainability'.
Re:For the first time there's more people worldwide aged 65+... by Gibbon1 on Thursday May 02, 2019 @07:46PM (#19814144)
The Late Bronze age Collapse and the Classic Maya Collapse as well.
Re:For the first time there's more people worldwide aged 65+... by drak0n1c on Thursday May 02, 2019 @01:51PM (#19810525)
Slate Star Codex recently did an analysis of technological progress and income growth and found that the most correlated variable was population growth.

https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/04/22/1960-the-year-the-sing...

Re:For the first time there's more people worldwide aged 65+... by seba_dos1 on Thursday May 02, 2019 @04:34PM (#19812583)
> Nature won't kill us any more

I wouldn't be so sure about that ;) Everything seems to suggest that we're about to have a bad time.

Re:For the first time there's more people worldwide aged 65+... by shagmin on Thursday May 02, 2019 @01:24PM (#19810238)
If it's a function of a percentile of the population, then sure, there would be fewer geniuses and such. But a shrinking population seems to coincide with a better educated population. An educated, stable, slightly shrinking population can realize its full potential more than a growing population competing for finite resources.
Re:For the first time there's more people worldwide aged 65+... by PunchTornado on Thursday May 02, 2019 @01:34PM (#19810336)
2b people in Asia/Africa with no access to education don't give many geniuses.

you can have less people but everyone educated.

Re:For the first time there's more people worldwide aged 65+... by ramblerman on Friday May 03, 2019 @04:16AM (#19816512)
Nonsense, what a strange metric to focus on. You completely ignore the added pain and suffering of a larger population to crank out one more beethoven.

If we keep the planet sustainable, we also have time on our side, and that beethoven will still be born, just later.

Re:For the first time there's more people worldwide aged 65+... by everdrive on Thursday May 02, 2019 @02:34PM (#19811050)
>There's no reason our current (or a larger) population isn't sustainable by changing how we generate energy or dispose of waste.

I'll believe that when I see it. Organizing disparate groups of people is quite difficult.

Re:For the first time there's more people worldwide aged 65+... by Arainach on Thursday May 02, 2019 @01:00PM (#19809959)
There's a lot more to society than energy. Take food, for example - a huge portion of the world's food is grown in the American midwest. That food is powered by fertilizer (petroleum) and aquifers that are being depleted far faster than they're being refilled. Or seafood, which is being depleted rapidly. More people require more resources - wood, minerals, you name it - and there simply isn't enough to go around arbitrarily.
Re:For the first time there's more people worldwide aged 65+... by samhain on Thursday May 02, 2019 @09:20PM (#19814619)
>There's no reason our current (or a larger) population isn't sustainable

What methods are you using to know this is true?

Re:For the first time there's more people worldwide aged 65+... by neokantian on Thursday May 02, 2019 @12:54PM (#19809908)
Well, if it is the result of birth rates below the replacement level, the question is: Is it uberhaupt possible to later on bring these birth rates up again? There will still be a need to replace the entire population every 75 years. If the only way is down, for the birth rate, and it looks like it is, it means that entire populations are going to die out. Now, this could indeed be "a good thing long term", but some people may feel that it is not. Debatable ...
Re:For the first time there's more people worldwide aged 65+... by drak0n1c on Thursday May 02, 2019 @02:10PM (#19810774)
In a future with far fewer natural births, and much more automation, it could be possible to fund large scale IVF creation of babies carried to term by paid/volunteer surrogates, or artificial surrogates. I could see both secular and religious motivations for such a program.

The raising of such children in stable family units or non-dysfunctional academies would probably be a bigger challenge than the birthing program.

Re:For the first time there's more people worldwide aged 65+... by jerkstate on Thursday May 02, 2019 @12:39PM (#19809755)
I agree but according to the article the overall population will continue to grow until 2070.
Re:For the first time there's more people worldwide aged 65+... by beat on Thursday May 02, 2019 @03:30PM (#19811724)
The population growth isn't coming from new births, which have leveled off. Rather, it's coming from people living longer. This is true in every nation that manages to crawl out of utter poverty - within a generation or two, birth rate drops to at or below replacement.

Yes, this seems counter to everything we're told about the population explosion. It's not the 1960s anymore, but our education hasn't caught up to that yet. Hans Rosling writes about this extensively in Factfulness.

Re:For the first time there's more people worldwide aged 65+... by themagician on Thursday May 02, 2019 @12:59PM (#19809951)
Not with the current political and economic structures we have. They all REQUIRE a growing population to function because we borrow from the future.

Without a growing population safety nets collapse because there aren’t enough young people to support the older people. Government debt spirals out of control as revenues can only decline in the future.

Capitalism itself, at least the way it functions today, starts to fall apart at the seems.

No modern western country has any system to deal with this. Stocks values, social security, government spending, staffing (military and private) all rely on more people with more productivity and more money on the bottom end.

Re:For the first time there's more people worldwide aged 65+... by neokantian on Thursday May 02, 2019 @01:03PM (#19809983)
It is certainly not the only contradiction in the system. The only question left is: How do you hedge against or even personally profit from the inevitable collapse?
Re:For the first time there's more people worldwide aged 65+... by beat on Thursday May 02, 2019 @03:33PM (#19811769)
Why does it have to collapse? The failure of capitalism might be just a brief blip as we transition to the Next Big Thing.
Re:For the first time there's more people worldwide aged 65+... by JohnFen on Thursday May 02, 2019 @01:18PM (#19810154)
> Not with the current political and economic structures we have.

True, but the structures we have are mathematically unsustainable. Eventually, it has to become something else. When that shift happens, it's going to hurt.

I think it's better if that change is more gradual rather than a sudden collapse. A gradual reduction of population would be an excellent way to accomplish that.

Re:For the first time there's more people worldwide aged 65+... by AstralStorm on Thursday May 02, 2019 @02:10PM (#19810770)
That won't happen for half a century, the total is actually increasing and only keeping steady in the "former first world".

We'll have to deal with it in some way. UBI, extending production, shifting focus from competition to cooperation can all be done gradually.

Re:For the first time there's more people worldwide aged 65+... by beat on Thursday May 02, 2019 @03:55PM (#19812063)
The boundary between "developing world" and "first world" is a lot blurrier than you think. Is Iran a "developing world" nation, or a "first world" nation? Their birth rate is lower than that of Europe.

Population growth at this point is a result of extended lifespans, due to far fewer people dying of disease, infection, famine, and war. In all but a handful of nations (like Afghanistan and South Sudan), birth rates are down to replacement levels or below, or will be there within a generation.

And declines in birth rates are a consequence of poverty reduction. In the late 1990s, the global extreme poverty rate (less than $1.80/day in today's dollars) was 29%. Twenty years later, it's less than 9%. Astounding!

Get people out of poverty, and the birth rate problem fixes itself in a generation. Which is exactly what happened to the "first world" nations, if you think about it. In the 19th century, Sweden had a 90% illiteracy rate, and was so poor and hungry that fully 20% of the population emigrated to North America. Today, they're... Sweden. The gold standard of modern civilization. Why can't, say, Yemen accomplish the same thing?

Re:For the first time there's more people worldwide aged 65+... by Scarblac on Thursday May 02, 2019 @01:20PM (#19810173)
That's just money. Problems with e.g. too much borrowing can be solved by inflation. By itself that isn't a greater problem than all the others we're facing.
Re:For the first time there's more people worldwide aged 65+... by wait_a_minute on Thursday May 02, 2019 @01:17PM (#19810147)
Long before that is a problem we will have moved to a society where the marginal costs of basically any business are close to 0. Meaning that we can then simply automate the necessities of life and use a universal basic income for everything else.

Capitalism is the bootloader for a Star Trek society.

Re:For the first time there's more people worldwide aged 65+... by beat on Thursday May 02, 2019 @03:32PM (#19811754)
So what if capitalism (and socialism) falls apart? Feudalism fell apart two centuries ago, and we're fine. It'll just be replaced by something that more accurately reflects available technology.
Re:For the first time there's more people worldwide aged 65+... by tengbretson on Thursday May 02, 2019 @02:26PM (#19810965)
Why? We have an entire solar system out there to explore!
Re:For the first time there's more people worldwide aged 65+... by drivingmenuts on Thursday May 02, 2019 @02:35PM (#19811062)
One that is incredibly hostile to life as we know it. Dr McCoy was right: Space is disease and danger wrapped in darkness and silence.
Re:For the first time there's more people worldwide aged 65+... by tengbretson on Thursday May 02, 2019 @02:40PM (#19811116)
Our current planet was made habitable by organisms infinitesimally less intelligent than humans. I think we're up to the challenge.
Re:For the first time there's more people worldwide aged 65+... by ksaj on Saturday May 04, 2019 @11:10AM (#19826895)
While absolutely true, it did take time, fraught with a whole lot of failure to bring us to this point where we feel the need to recognize a potential and probable impending failure (again).

Life may compete with the elements as it has for so long and so many times on Earth, or become completely obliterated as it may have been on a planet such as Mars.

Then again, without a long enough window of time for observance, we really have very little way to determine if life on Mars is already well on its way to a huge resurgence.

A lot of change happens in a little as 100,000 years...

Re:For the first time there's more people worldwide aged 65+... by leonroy on Thursday May 02, 2019 @06:11PM (#19813474)
> Our current planet was made habitable by organisms infinitesimally less intelligent than humans.

I'm a big Musk/Bezos fan too and share their dreams of colonizing the solar system but let's be fair, our amoeba ancestors had billions of years in which to adapt to the planet. Homo-sapiens have barely been around for 400 000 years and there's little evidence our current societal structures will be sustainable for a fraction of that time.

Re:For the first time there's more people worldwide aged 65+... by drivingmenuts on Saturday May 04, 2019 @06:07PM (#19829688)
Those oeganisms didn’t have lawyers and safety experts to answer to. It’s not like A. Moeba was going to sue B. Moeba because C. Moeba a died in a chlorophyll-related incident.