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Re:Apache Software Foundation joins GitHub open source commu... by jlokier on Monday April 29, 2019 @10:47AM (#19778815)
> Does it matter that GitHub themselves is not open source?

That's for Apache to decide, but consider:

Git itself was written, by Linus Torvalds, because Linux (the kernel) was using non-open source version control at the time called BitKeeper, and the non-open source nature of it was causing increasing problems in the Linux developer community, both ideological and eventually practical problems too, caused by the licensing preventing some devs from building tools.

When Git was written and the Linux kernel devs jumped to it en masse, it was like a breath of fresh air.

BitKeeper has credit for many of the ideas found in Git before Git. (Aside: credit also should go to Mercurial for ideas). One of the things that made Git better than BitKeeper was people were free to build more tools on it, which is entirely due to the open vs. closed source licensing, as well as a general attitude of welcome vs. unwelcome towards those tools.

GitHub is different because it already builds on Git, and works with tools that anyone can build on top of Git.

But some things which are really essential to thriving developer community are locked away in GitHub, so it's still limiting what people can build with it. (For example, can you innovate on how Issues are handled? Somewhat, but not in every way that is useful.)

In some ways GitHub is like any other walled garden. You can't fork it yourself.

Re:Apache Software Foundation joins GitHub open source commu... by craigsmansion on Monday April 29, 2019 @01:04PM (#19780206)
"Ideological and eventual practical problems too" is way too general.

The very specific flash-point was Linus throwing an unjustified hissy-fit defending Larry McVoy of BitKeeper being difficult about Andrew Tridgel (Tridge of Samba fame) "reverse engineering" the data traffic of Bitkeeper for inter-operability (really just sniffing client packets with wireshark or something).

Whether the name "git" pertains to Tridge or Linus himself who in retrospect decided he acted like a spoiled brat is still not known :)

Re:Apache Software Foundation joins GitHub open source commu... by jlokier on Monday April 29, 2019 @02:38PM (#19781244)
There were more people having problems than Tridge.

I was there, and I was told in private mail by the author of BitKeeper that I did not have permission to use it, because of my work on respository analysis software that looked like it would get too close for comfort.

That's without any reverse engineering. I never used BitKeeper, or connected to the server, or read the infamous "help" text.

It meant I couldn't participate in kernel development in the same way as most folks.

I wasn't the only one, and that's what I mean by practical problems, not just ideological.

Re:Apache Software Foundation joins GitHub open source commu... by craigsmansion on Monday April 29, 2019 @04:17PM (#19782200)
My apologies. I didn't want to gainsay your claim, but I've noticed I've been getting older [1] and things that happened "recently" and "should be common knowledge", are not, in fact, exactly that for everyone.

I wanted to point out that it was not a very loose "pragmatic and/or ideological" argument back then, but there were very specific actions and respected actors involved.

You obviously, being directly involved, are aware of the specifics, but it might be easy for a casual reader to place it in a "Ah, the Free Software people were ruining a good free thing even back then" context, whereas pretty much the opposite happened.

[1] and you too, by implication, for which my apologies as well.

Re:Apache Software Foundation joins GitHub open source commu... by jlokier on Wednesday May 01, 2019 @07:14AM (#19796066)
Thanks for the apology, but no worries, it isn't needed :-)

That's interesting. I read your comment as making out that it was _merely_ one person (Tridge) who had a problem with BitKeeper and BK didn't deserve the flak, but I read your later comment as making out that BK did deserve it.

Re:Apache Software Foundation joins GitHub open source commu... by beefhash on Monday April 29, 2019 @01:36PM (#19780587)
> (really just sniffing client packets with wireshark or something).

He connected to a BK port and typed "help". BK helpfully output a bunch of protocol help. He used that to implement something minor (I think for archival?) and McVoy wasn't having it.

Re:Apache Software Foundation joins GitHub open source commu... by craigsmansion on Monday April 29, 2019 @01:58PM (#19780798)
Right, thanks!

It wasn't even "wireshark", but simply a telnet session indeed.

Re:Apache Software Foundation joins GitHub open source commu... by int_19h on Tuesday April 30, 2019 @04:13AM (#19785999)
So the real problem was really the proprietary nature of the protocol - both in the sense that it wasn't properly documented, and in the sense that the author tried to use legal means to keep it secret.

But GitHub doesn't have this problem.

Re:Apache Software Foundation joins GitHub open source commu... by xorcist on Monday April 29, 2019 @12:03PM (#19779580)
Just for the historial record: Bitkeeper is much older than both git and Mercurial, hence Bitkeeper can not be said to have taken ideas from Mercurial.

Both was sprung in large parts from Linus' description of what requirements he had in order to consider using a version control system for Linux.

Re:Apache Software Foundation joins GitHub open source commu... by robaato on Monday April 29, 2019 @12:34PM (#19779893)
I think the comment meant that git took ideas from Mercurial rather than BK taking ideas from Mercurial.
Re:Apache Software Foundation joins GitHub open source commu... by j16sdiz on Monday April 29, 2019 @01:23PM (#19780436)
Git start before mercurial.
Re:Apache Software Foundation joins GitHub open source commu... by jlokier on Monday April 29, 2019 @02:46PM (#19781332)
You're right.

They were both released extremely close together, and I don't remember why I associate Mercurial ideas as being something Git learned from. Maybe I'm wrong about it.

Re:Apache Software Foundation joins GitHub open source commu... by xorcist on Monday April 29, 2019 @03:54PM (#19781992)
Maybe you are thinking of Monotone. It shares some design, such as referencing commits by their hashes and zero copy branching.

I think Linus said at some point that if only performance would have been sufficient for the Linux kernel, there would have been no git (but don't quote me on that).