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Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by khawkins on Monday April 22, 2019 @05:14PM (#19723065)
This is philosophical drivel that has only the effect of making politicians seem like they care about the environment. The notions of harm or injustice with respect to the environment are all socially constructed human values we imbue them with.

If I dump waste in the river, the river or its creatures aren't going to march into court and demand justice, people will. They will say they are acting on behalf of the interests of the river, its ecosystem, or its living things, but rivers are unthinking geographical features and the animals aren't choosing these advocates.

You don't need to engage in such theatrics to protect the environment.

Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by egypturnash on Monday April 22, 2019 @05:53PM (#19723374)
The river now has a lot of rights that it previously did not. This will create a lot of really interesting legal possibilities.

Compare with what personhood has done for corporations - classing political donations as "free speech" has been an avenue for them to get around limits intended to make it harder to buy politicians.

We speak metaphorically about how corporations rape the land. Can this river now sue corporations who dump garbage into it for raping it? Probably not if there's a legal definition of what "rape" is. But maybe charges of "assault" are possible.

The article notes that which rights a body of water has have yet to be determined. That's going to be some interesting times.

Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by pyuser583 on Monday April 22, 2019 @08:17PM (#19724432)
If I own a house adjacent to the river, and the river floods my property, can I sue the river?
Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by egypturnash on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @12:35AM (#19725641)
If you built on a floodplain then there may be an argument that you are trespassing on land that rightly belongs to the river. The river’s wanderings built that land and I doubt you or anyone who previously owned that property ever negotiated with the river for it.

And I am saying this as someone in the middle of moving to New Orleans, a place humanity has been fighting with a river over for three centuries now. Someday the Mississippi will assert its claim forcefully. And New Orleanians will probably just shrug and either build up houses that sit next to canals instead of streets, or learn to grow gills. New Venice or New Atlantis.

[dead]
Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by egypturnash on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @08:49PM (#19734550)
> nearly limitless capacity for activist judges to wield the justice system according to their whims.

It'd be a nice change from activist judges who take the side of the corporations.

Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by roywiggins on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @10:55AM (#19729211)
The US government has sued land (and won): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._50_Acres_of_L...

People have sued God (and lost): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawsuits_against_God

People have sued search warrants (and won): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_v._Search_Warrant

So you probably can! But, lacking a fixed address or any way to notify the defendant, you'd probably have the case thrown out. Also, enforcing any judgement would probably be impossible, so there's that.

The moral of the story is that courts have lots of ways to deal with situations like this.

Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by yesco on Monday April 22, 2019 @06:15PM (#19723544)
You know I've always thought that rivers deserved the right to privacy /s
Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by bunderbunder on Monday April 22, 2019 @06:02PM (#19723449)
> This is philosophical drivel that has only the effect of making politicians seem like they care about the environment.

That, or it's a clever hack that that brings many existing aspects of the legal system to bear in interesting ways.

For example, I'm guessing that the river being a legal person would imply that it cannot be owned, neither in whole nor in part, by any other person. It sounds like the law also provides for some other things that legal persons typically have, such as a panel of one or more humans to serve as its representative. And that panel of humans would probably then have the ability to do things like pursue litigation on its behalf.

Note that this isn't a particularly new hack, either. Basically the same thing has been done with things that are even more nebulous than a river, such as trusts and corporations, for centuries. The most unprecedented aspect is the idea that you could use this bit of semantic sleight-of-hand for a purpose other than making money.

Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by empath75 on Monday April 22, 2019 @06:04PM (#19723460)
Corporations are legal persons and owned by people.
Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by bunderbunder on Monday April 22, 2019 @06:11PM (#19723510)
Yeah, fair point. I should have said "was meant to imply" instead. That's certainly at least what a lot of people in the article seemed to be pushing for.
Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by roywiggins on Monday April 22, 2019 @06:31PM (#19723692)
Legal fictions that carry the force of law are very distinctly not legal drivel.

Children have rights, though those rights pretty much all have to be modulated through someone who is either their parent or acting as their parent.

Children can't march into court and demand justice when they are harmed, but you can 1) sue on behalf of a child, 2) take a child into the care of the state and 3) prosecute someone who harms the child. They're legal people, though all of their rights are contingent on other people acting within the legal system to enforce them.

Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by Apocryphon on Monday April 22, 2019 @05:24PM (#19723143)
Sometimes it takes theatrics to get people to care enough about a resource, especially when it is a commons.
Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by jhbadger on Monday April 22, 2019 @05:37PM (#19723235)
On the other hand, is it any different than the legal fiction in the US that says that Google and Microsoft are "people" themselves rather than businesses that employ people?
Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by gonational on Monday April 22, 2019 @05:42PM (#19723285)
Probably not, but I think a pretty vast number of people would agree that these sorts of corporate legal fictions should also not exist.

Giving a corporation personhood does not give the corporation rights as much as does take away rights from those who interact with that corporation.

Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by Zuider on Monday April 22, 2019 @08:24PM (#19724478)
>Giving a corporation personhood does not give the corporation rights as much as does take away rights from those who interact with that corporation.

Maybe, but the purpose of legal personhood for abstract entities is also to hold them accountable under the same proven body of law that applies to individuals. Corporate personhood is not a new invention, but came from Roman law as it became practically necessary to extend the body of law governing individuals to families, clans, tribes, and eventually to such entities as guilds, universities and even city states. Today, the word 'corporation' has become virtually synonymous with a commercial enterprise, but the concept of legal incorporation is much wider than that.

Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by dragonwriter on Monday April 22, 2019 @08:28PM (#19724494)
> Giving a corporation personhood does not give the corporation rights as much as does take away rights from those who interact with that corporation.

I think you are (aside from any debate about your basic position) conflating juridical personhood, which is the issue here, with Constitutional (under, e.g., the 5th and 14th Amendments, and thus applying to rights within the scope of liberty addressed by those Amendments) personhood, as at issue in Citizens United, which are different concepts.

Juridical personhood is a defining feature of corporations, making them subjects of law that can, for instance, be sued.

Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by bunderbunder on Monday April 22, 2019 @06:31PM (#19723698)
Arguably, you can't destroy corporate personhood without doing a lot of damage to capitalism itself.

One problem that corporate personhood was meant to solve was that owning part of a business becomes a legally risky thing when the business isn't a separate person from its owners. Incorporation creates a legal firewall that, for example, allows me to own stock in Apple without having to fear that I will get personally sued if they do something wrong, or that someone will be able to go after my personal assets if they go bankrupt.

It also makes it easier for me to interact with the corporation in certain ways - for example, if I have a grievance against something Apple did, I can name a single, easy to identify entity in my lawsuit, rather than having to pursue a case against a whole slew of individuals. The latter would be a prohibitively difficult effort, since you'd have to figure out exactly which individual are responsible in order to name them in the lawsuit, and then deal with a whole bunch of additional litigation in order to allocate liability among all the people involved in whatever thing it is you're suing them about.

There is still a question of exactly what rights and responsibilities a corporate person should get. Many legal jurisdictions, including the United States, have historically been very liberal in granting natural rights to corporations, and there's plenty of room to argue that they've gone too far. But I don't think there's much room for arguing against the idea that at least some aspects of corporate personhood actually work out to the benefit of people who interact with corporations.

Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by gonational on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @10:20AM (#19728830)
> allows me to own stock in Apple without having to fear that I will get personally sued if they do something wrong

This is part of what I mean when I say that corporate personhood takes away rights from those who interact with corporations. A corporation can feel financial pain, but it cannot experience the emotional pain of loss, the fear of which being a deterrent against tortious (or criminal) behavior.

I realize, the notion of personally punishing e.g., XYZ Phone Co shareholders, because one their phone's battery bursts into flames and kills a child, sounds a little weird. Should the mother of this child simply accept cash for her son's life and be happy with it? If that's not fair, who should personally pay, the CEO? He's just an employee of the corporation, who is beholden to the shareholders.

Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by roywiggins on Monday April 22, 2019 @06:25PM (#19723634)
Corporate personhood is not a US-only thing. It's a pretty old idea, and most countries recognize corporations as legal persons.

> The idea that corporations have legal rights, and therefore a kind of personhood, is not an invention of contemporary conservatives. Its roots stretch all the way back through the history of American law and deep into the English common-law tradition. That tradition was captured most comprehensively — and communicated to the American founders most forcefully — by William Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England...

> A corporation is simply a legally recognized group of people cooperating with a view to some common end. Indeed, the very purpose of that legal recognition and the rights that accompany it is to provide a framework for a group of citizens to freely associate with one another in a stable, productive, and harmonious way.

https://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/are-corp...

Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by devoply on Monday April 22, 2019 @05:44PM (#19723294)
Parks can already be corporations. I don't know how it would be any different than Disney Land suing you for littering on their property. The whole issue is tragedy of the commons which often does not occur with private property. Maybe it should be a corporation owned by the people who live around it as shareholders, and they can bring a lawsuit against anyone that damages their property. In fact making public goods corporations like that beholden to their shareholders might help protect them better, like for instance sources of water and such. Shares can be tied directly to land and housing a certain distance from that public work.
Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by dragonwriter on Monday April 22, 2019 @07:11PM (#19724005)
> On the other hand, is it any different than the legal fiction in the US that says that Google and Microsoft are "people" themselves rather than businesses that employ people?

It's no different from the legal fiction that says “the United State of America” is a person, either.

Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by lancewiggs on Monday April 22, 2019 @09:59PM (#19724995)
This was about Maori settlements, not politicians.

The Maori, under the Treaty of Waitangi, own the rivers, and the Crown (NZ Government) stole that right away from them. (This is all in the article). The river's personhood is a compromise between the status quo and giving the land back.

(and it's a marvellous region and river, that deserves to be left alone)

Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by disordinary on Monday April 22, 2019 @05:30PM (#19723179)
It's also an acknowledgement that the anglo-saxon way of law is not the only way.
Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by wahern on Monday April 22, 2019 @06:04PM (#19723463)
I'm not quite sure what your premise is: whether giving a river personhood is novel or not novel in Anglo law. But FWIW granting inanimate things a legal personality (with rights and even duties!) has a long history not only in English Common Law but also the Western legal tradition back to the Ancient Greeks.[1] I doubt the practice is confined to the Western legal tradition as it has immense practical utility and is an obvious hack to most any legal system.

[1] See, e.g., Lawrence B. Solum, Legal Personhood for Artificial Intelligences, 70 North Carolina Law Review 1231, 1239 (1992) (https://scholarship.law.unc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=...)

Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by disordinary on Monday April 22, 2019 @06:35PM (#19723726)
The article goes into detail about how the river is a living thing in Maori culture.
Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by pyuser583 on Monday April 22, 2019 @08:20PM (#19724453)
Being granted a legal status under an Anglo Saxon legal code that is frequently granted to banks, charities, and governments.
Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by disordinary on Monday April 22, 2019 @08:35PM (#19724540)
Sure, but that is only a convenience the concept is that the river has it's own identity comes from local tradition.

The law was recommended by the Waitangi tribunal which is a body that redresses historical grievances by Iwi.

Not only is the river now it's own entity which is not owned by anyone local Iwi received $80 million from the government and a $30 million dollar fund to improve the health of the river.

Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by yayr on Monday April 22, 2019 @05:38PM (#19723248)
democracy started also as a quite philosophical debate back in those days...
Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by justinator on Monday April 22, 2019 @05:42PM (#19723277)
Beats nothing.
Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by int_19h on Monday April 22, 2019 @06:16PM (#19723545)
Does it, though, if it helps cement stuff like Citizens United?

(I'm well aware that New Zealand is a different country, so it doesn't set a legal precedent. It does set a cultural and moral one, however.)

Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by bluGill on Monday April 22, 2019 @05:30PM (#19723180)
If I dump "waste" in the river I will argue on behalf of the river in court that the fish are invaders and my "waste" is an antibiotic killing those invaders. It is just as valid as anything else.

That the river is valued for the fish and plants is a human construct.

Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by chris1993 on Monday April 22, 2019 @06:32PM (#19723703)
Would you argue that slavery is valid since freedom from slavery and other human rights are human constructs?
Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by bluGill on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @09:16AM (#19728253)
I note by the downvotes on my original post several people cannot understand the concept of "devils advocate".

Philosophers have debated questions like this for years, and have far more powerful arguments (on both sides) than I do. I suggest you look them up if you are really interested.

I have concluded that slavery should be legal, but there is a catch: all slaves must agree to become a slave while in their right mind. I can't imagine someone agreeing to become a slave, but if someone does I don't have a problem with it. (Note that depression, drunkenness, children, and kidnapping are some of the more obvious ways to get a slave that I have ruled out)