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Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by sandworm101 on Monday April 22, 2019 @05:00PM (#19722938)
Legal personhood is much misunderstood. There is no grand set of rights attached to all persons. There are an infinite different types of persons, entities to which some rights are attached but never all. We in the west normally understand "persons" as in flesh-and-blood physical people but even then what rights a person has depends on all sorts of things, from the location of their birth, to their age, sex, mental capacity, education or wealth. And yes, race can still alter a person's rights under the law. What matters is not the "person" label but what rights this court is willing to recognize at attach to this new type of person.
Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by int_19h on Monday April 22, 2019 @06:18PM (#19723566)
Why call them persons then, when they clearly aren't, and their rights are so different that same right can be fundamental for one type or entity but completely irrelevant to another (e.g. right to life, in the context of legal entities). Basically, what's the benefit of having this single category where everything gets lumped?
Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by arcticbull on Monday April 22, 2019 @06:53PM (#19723859)
I'm assuming it's a pragmatic decision. Rather than creating a new class of thing ('rivers'? 'natural entities'?) and then revisiting the entire code of laws and updating it to apply to 'persons' and 'natural entities' where applicable, they made the pragmatic decision of leveraging the flexibility of the existing construct. A "legal person" is not a "human person" its a specific construct.

Think of it more as you have a top-level protocol in a piece of software. It's super flexible, designed for many diverse use cases. You write a whole pile of software around the top-level protocol "Person". Then, you realize you need to extend the software to support a new kind of thing, the "River". You now have a few choices.

Option 1: Massive refactor. Create a new top-level thing called "LegalEntity" to which both "Person" and "River" conform. Then, you have to update literally every single thing in the entire app to support both, and handle both appropriately.

Option 2: There's enough flexibility in "Person" than you can just make "River" conform to "Person" and you don't have to refactor anything at all.

Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by basetop on Monday April 22, 2019 @07:24PM (#19724081)
I forgot where I learned this, but I remember someone saying that in law there are really just two entities - person and property. A person is any entity that has rights. Only "persons" can have rights in law. A property is anything that can be owned. And all law is revolved around person and property.

The rights between a human, a corporation and a river might be different, but the fact that they all have rights is what unites them and why they are "persons". I believe it is a legacy when only human beings had rights. But the legal system got abstracted and we wanted to give rights to non-human entities.

Also, keep in mind that human beings had different rights as well. Some humans didn't even have rights and were not considered legal persons.

Colloquially, we use person as a synonym for human, but in law, person is anything with rights.

Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by telchar on Monday April 22, 2019 @10:34PM (#19725119)
With respect, this is nonsensical. This A or B abstraction is pretty useless when something can be both A and B. An obvious example is the corporation: this is (according to the current SCOTUS) a person with most of the rights of natural persons yet can and indeed, must be owned.

I would guess that the issue here is some mix of your not understanding the legal nuance here (as you allude to) and the law around it itself being incoherent. I don't claim to understand the laws here myself, but then the legal concept of a person is very tortured anyway.

Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by markdown on Monday April 22, 2019 @11:47PM (#19725441)
I've always found "US govt VS $200" type court cases to be ridiculous.

Person vs Property.

Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by mehrdadn on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @01:38AM (#19725874)
Are they actually titled that way? That's hilarious.
Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by int_19h on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @01:43AM (#19725891)
Yep, that's exactly how civil forfeiture works.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United...

Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by mehrdadn on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @01:55AM (#19725943)
Wow. I knew civil forfeiture was a claim brought against a property but I didn't realize that's literally what they would write as the defendant. I can't believe judges take this seriously...
Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by pmyteh on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @06:25AM (#19727147)
There's a long tradition of actions in rem (against 'the thing') in law, especially in admiralty actions. If you're, say, the Port Authority for a harbour, and a foreign ship fails to pay its harbour dues, what do you do? The owner is an ocean away (and difficult to enforce jurisdiction over) but the ship is sitting right there and can (if necessary) be seized and sold. Looking at it that way it makes a lot more sense.
Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by hammock on Monday April 22, 2019 @08:14PM (#19724418)
That explanation doesn't hold up to scrutiny, since slaves had some rights as well as being property at the same time. Or animals.
Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by maxerickson on Monday April 22, 2019 @09:24PM (#19724820)
Most places when confronted with that inconsistency have eventually stopped treating people as property.
Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by sandworm101 on Monday April 22, 2019 @07:33PM (#19724155)
The legacy is that some persons had rights. Some had more than others (still a thing) and some had no rights (almost not a thing today) and some people were seen as the property of others barring special circumstances.
Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by pyuser583 on Monday April 22, 2019 @08:11PM (#19724403)
Rights and obligations. The two go hand-in-hand.
Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by dragonwriter on Monday April 22, 2019 @06:59PM (#19723901)
> Basically, what's the benefit of having this single category where everything gets lumped?

It's the category of things that have legally cognizable interests, which is arguably the most important category for law.

It's named “persons” because persons in the boring common sense were originally the only members of he category.

Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by SllX on Monday April 22, 2019 @06:51PM (#19723847)
Convenience before the courts. Tradition thereafter. Inertia in the body of Law at some point.

It works, and wise people don’t seek to fix things that are not actually broken.

Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by munk-a on Monday April 22, 2019 @08:57PM (#19724665)
They are persons for historical reason, it's just like that table at the center of your DB with a terrible name - changing it now would be immensely expensive due to all the dependencies so we just accept the table is poorly named.

In the US a certain set of rights are given to "persons" that should really be given to "legal entities", I've never had a conclusive answer as to why but I'm just going to guess it was a lack of foresight. Over time there have been judicial rulings, national laws, local laws, and other fun stuff that have slowly corrected or clarified the definition of a legal "person" that should apply to all things labeled "persons". Some of these you may or may not agree with (maybe only "natural persons" should be able to participate in the political system and such) but the general approach of clarifying the term even if the term isn't perfect is a pretty good approach.

Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by int_19h on Monday April 22, 2019 @09:14PM (#19724768)
But how much of that existing stuff that "persons" have - even counting legal persons - is actually useful when applied to a river?
Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by zapzupnz on Monday April 22, 2019 @06:53PM (#19723857)
Because law English is not our English. Law uses plenty of terms in completely different ways than everyday and even academic English, but still with specific meaning within its own context.

That this meaning is unknown to people outside the profession is not necessarily an issue. It is the job of a good legal professional to make sure we never need know whilst they sort the minutiae between themselves.

Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by Godel_unicode on Monday April 22, 2019 @07:43PM (#19724221)
I really hate this type of high-priesthood mentality, encapsulation is really dangerous when it's this leaky.
Re:The Whanganui River in New Zealand is a legal person by zapzupnz on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @02:46AM (#19726167)
It's not a high priesthood mentality. Law, by definition, requires a level of precision far beyond that with which most people will bother — just like scientific or academic fields, the terminology is often difficult for those who are unfamiliar with it, but it is precise and consistent.

We don't expect scientists to restrict their terminologies within their own fields to terms with which laypeople are familiar, equally so for those of us in computer science and engineering, so why expect it of another field?

The high priesthood preserved Latin, it's true, concealing the true nature of the religion from the tongue of its faithful parishioners in order to maintain unearned control; this is not the case for Law English as lawyers and judges have nothing to gain by maintaining their own manner of speaking since their pronouncements and judges do need to be explained, in plain English, to the involved parties and the public who have no need of the knowledge of legal minutiae. These 'translations' are relatively easily scrutinised even by non-professionals and a public that is increasingly literate in the law.