The MBP is not great bang-to-buck. I bought one 4 years ago (PowerBook, then) and it ended up costing about $3,000. The MacBook costs just over 1/3 that. 1 year ago, I bought a MacBook to replace the failing MBP, and the difference was incredible: the regular MacBook well-exceeded everything about the MBP. I could buy a new MacBook every year (if I needed to) and it would cost the same as buying a MBP every 3 years, and that's if we don't factor in resale.

Given that the poster is using the system to learn to program, I doubt he needs the MBP. The MB should more than suit that need.

You're talking entirely about a different computer and a different time. A new Macbook Pro (such as one he might buy) comes with a much better operating system, can run Windows programs side by side, has the same processor and graphics card as leading PC counterparts, does not cost $3,000 ($1599 with Student Developer discount), has an LED Glossy option versus fluorescent matte, has more mac native apps and dev tools than ever, gives many more reasons to use it for programming like for the iPhone, as well as opportunities to create web apps in ROR, Django, and other web frameworks that did not exist at the time that now need to be tested on a Mac since it also happens to have much greater marketshare. All of this means that his computer might last for more years than before, since the hardware is already top of the line compared not just to mac machines released a year prior, but to high end pc laptops, as well, which means he might as well get the MacBook Pro.

> You're talking entirely about a different computer and a different time

I know, just as it'll change again in the next 3 years.

> A new Macbook Pro (such as one he might buy) comes with...

Most of these things come with a standard MacBook, too, so why not buy a MacBook?

Some of the things that MacBook doesn't have that the MBP does:

> $1599 with Student Developer discount

Actually, it's $1799, but that doesn't factor in taxes, which bring it to about retail, or $2000, and that's without any configuration options (the one I bought, spec'ed out again, is still $3000).

(By the way, If you're looking to buy a Mac, look at the Amazon discount over Apple's store: with free shipping and no taxes, it's almost always cheaper.)

> LED Glossy options versus fluorescent matte

True.

> All of this means that his computer might last for more years than before, since the hardware is already top of the line compared not just to mac machines released a year prior, but to high end pc laptops, as well

I guess it's whether or not you're willing to make that bet or not.

> which means he might as well get the MacBook Pro.

Or, he could save a lot of money, get an equivalent machine for his needs, and buy a new one every year and still not spend as much.

>> LED Glossy options versus fluorescent matte

>True.

False. The matte screen is LED and its unclear from the specs whether the glossy is LED or fluorescent.

From apple.com: "15.4-inch (diagonal) antiglare widescreen TFT LED backlit display with support for millions of colors; optional glossy widescreen display"

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but typing "macbook pro led glossy" into Google shows the answer.

Ah, thanks. Well then I guess I can't give that one to him.

I said Student Developer discount, not Student discount.

The Student Developer discount price is $1599, the student price is $1799.

OK, so $1800ish after taxes.

You can still get a MacBook for half that, which has everything else you mentioned, so why not get a MacBook and upgrade twice as often? (With resale value, you'll be way on top.)

I calculate $1678 after taxes, a savings of $421. I thought the same thing as you and bought a MacBook for $999 but returned it because it was slower, dimmer, smaller, and more mirror-like than my glossy MacBook Pro while weighing the same and looking like a children's toy.

What ultimately caused me to return it was trying to run a 3D plugin of a scene in a drawing program. It was unbelievably slow, while I remembered how well a Dell m1330 ran, which has the same integrated video chipset, Intel's X3100. I researched that either Apple or Intel had crappy video drivers on the Mac for that chipset, which meant it was already behind the times out of the box, never mind in two years.

And with the discount, the MacBook Pro might even be sold for a profit after 3-6 months in the worst case scenario (since including taxes it's worth $2,100), but the same MacBook at either Student Developer or Student price would likely be sold for a loss.

Great points. Thanks :)

I'll agree with that. I own a MacBook Pro and although it has some nice features (larger screen, better video card, aluminum finish...) it's not totally worth the difference in price, if you're looking for an economy system.

With that said, I'll also recommend that you get a ThinkPad instead of a Mac. They're time- and battle-tested machines, and work well. The Mac may seem to have less problems, but both usually have about the same amounts of problems, but just of some different natures.

I like the Mac, and I can live with Windows. Both are good machines, and you have to try both to see which one you like better.

Even better is a Thinkpad running some flavor of GNU/Linux. They're well supported because well, frankly, they're incredible machines and hackers everywhere love them.

For people trying to run a Thinkpad with Linux i can recommend ThinkWiki (http://thinkwiki.org/wiki/ThinkWiki).

It helped me alot in setting up my ThinkPad.

Back to the original Question: IMHO Thinkpads are very good and especially reliable Notebooks, but they also aren't cheap. When getting a Thinkpad then a T-Model most of the others don't differ that much from Notebooks sold by HP or Dell.

Our company has been using ThinkPads for years. In the past year standard issue has been T60p and T61p — and they're awful.

Crappy display drivers, a tendency to shut down when you plug them in or dock them, etc. etc.

We're switching to HPs now.

Me, I'm on my second MBP in 3 years and I'm happy. Another friend of mine just replaced his MacBook with a MBP, because it just wasn't quite keeping up.

I have a Thinkpad X41 Tablet that I really like. It was part of the very last product cycle to be branded IBM. Lots of people say that quality has gone downhill since then.

I owned a T42 and now a T61p. Even tough the build quality hasn't improved speaking of it having gone downhill is drastically exaggerated. The quality is comparable between the two, the nice little ideas still exist (like the keyboard light etc.) the only real change I saw was that i had to loosen 4 screws to extend the memory instead of four :-)

But one person probably isn't truly a reference... So more references are needed.

Which leads to the question.. What type of laptop will all the hackers buy if Lenovo doesn't pull things together soon?

Get both.

I agree wholeheartedly. Unless you need to do serious 3D work, the Pro is overkill. For everyday use, the plain-Jane MacBook is quite adequate. True, the hardware isn't quite a nice as ThinkPads of yore, and I loathe the glossy screen, but these are really my only complaints.

Sorry, I said "PowerBook, then". And in 4 years from now it may hold some other moniker.

My basic point was that if technology continues to change, the best bang for your buck is rarely the higher end. Only buy the high end if you need it and you're milking it for all it's worth.

If you're optimizing for the best bang-for-your-buck, then I agree. But if you spend all day working on a computer or depend on using a computer to make your living, I think it is very easy to justify buying highend equipment. $2.5k vs. $1.5k is not a very significant difference if it is amortized over 8 hours per day * 300 days per year.

Well, it's certainly justified, but if you have $1.5k to spare and not $2.5k, then that doesn't matter.

you only use a computer 300 days a year? and only 8 hours a day?

Well, those were just madeup numbers. If you use a computer more often, the case for getting good equipment is more compelling, of course.

Thinkpad++ I do believe some models come with linux preinstalled.

I believe thinkpad is one of the few laptops left that has what's called a stick? you know the little nub on the keyboard that you can use instead of a touch pad, and in reality it's way better than a touch pad. god I hate touch pads.

I wish I had bought a thinkpad.

The new MBPs (and MacBooks?) have a two finger touchpad interface that I've found makes a huge difference in its usability - with one finger down already controlling the mouse a second finger essentially works as a mousewheel. I can use my MBP's touchpad fine but can't stand having to use my work dell laptops w/o that feature.

Almost anyone that is willing to spend a couple of days adjusting to the ThinkPad's TrackPoint is going to be in for a treat. In particular, in most applications, holding down the center Trackpoint button will make the trackpoint work like a mousewheel (or, you can configure it to work like that all the time using its driver software.)

Most of the PC laptop touchpads that I have used will scroll the focused control if you run your finger up and down along the rightmost edge (or bottommost for horizontal motion). If yours doesn't, check your control panel settings to see if it can be enabled.

It's not quite the same as a scroll wheel in that there are some programs where one scrolling technique (wheel or trackpad) will work while the other won't, but it's similar enough to handle most cases.

oh this I'm aware of. mine has this feature. I still think touchpads (all that I have encountered) suck.

and infact on linux you can modify the area of the touchpad that does this. I think you can even add horizontal scroll if your touchpad didn't previously support it (not 100% on this).

If you're going to buy the new MacBook Pro (or another Apple laptop with multi-touch trackpad functionality) you'll want to get the application MultiClutch. It basically lets you set up rules globally or per-application that assigns gestures to keyboard shortcuts.

In other words: if I'm in Safari, I can remap three-finger swipe to changing tabs, swipe down for new tab, rotate right/left to back and forward, etc. It's very useful.

I believe the word you are searching for is Clit Mouse. Only Lenovo (Think Pad) and Dell (D620?) have them.

I've a Dell D830 with the clit mouse. Lack of said clit is one reason I stay away from macbooks.

(The better screen rez on the D830 is another)

When I purchased my Thinkpad T60 (nearly 18 months ago now -- how time flies!), the Lenovo sales staff was unable to help me find a notebook with Linux preinstalled. Maybe this has changed recently, but you're better off just buying the base Windows version and putting your favorite Linux distro on top of it.

http://www.thinkwiki.org is the best resource I'm aware of for Linux + Thinkpad installation tips.

Didn't take too long to find the model with OpenSUSE installed on their site:

http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPo...

The OpenSUSE models are a fairly recent addition to the lineup, and are still quite limited in terms of hardware options.

I call it the nipple. I prefer the touchpad. It's quicker and more precise.

I refer to it as the pencil eraser. Once you get used to it, you realize it has the more control than the touchpad. Its main benefit, for me, is that you never have to move your hands out of typing position.

Agreed. I haven't had the awesomeness of a dual touch touchpad, but I've had both normal ones and "the nub", and the latter is vastly preferable.

Try using it with a sniper rifle. You'll change your tune.

the only thing that was quicker 'maybe' about the touchpad was speed of learning, and ease of use. The 'nipple' is much faster and more precise if you invest more time in it. much like linux ;).

The new MBPs (and MacBooks?) have a two finger touchpad interface that I've found makes a huge difference in its usability - with one finger down already controlling the mouse a second finger essentially works as a mousewheel. I can use my MBP's touchpad fine but can't stand having to use my work dell laptops w/o that feature.

Obviously it didn't improve usability enough to stop you posting this three times :)

My MacBook Pro is my second Apple laptop (the first was a G4 powerbook) and it is going to be the last unless things change rapidly before it goes u/s.

- The keyboard is ok, but the metal finish is slippery.

- The large track pad forces typing with wrists at odd angles.

- OS X is horrible (all my applications are Linux native so work oddly on OS X, plus no focus on mouse being my biggest two complaints - the rest are subjective/personal).

- No region crack for the DVD player, which is unacceptable for travel. Doesn't even work with VLC.

On the plus side the build quality is superb, the screen is good, and for it's size/weight the performance is outstanding. I certainly wouldn't trade it for anything other than a Thinkpad or maybe two or three Dells - one a year, for when they break ;)

> all my applications are Linux native

I've seen people get OS X and then do nothing but run XP under virtualization because they can't be bothered to figure out the OS X native apps. I wonder what, exactly, you mean by "all my applications?"

Inkscape, open office, some custom PM software I wrote myself, front ends to eJabberd/mySQL/Apache/Cyrus, emacs, LaTeX and Firefox.

Plus a few things that aren't so important, like xplanet and SuperKaramba.

Yeah, I'm in the same (weird) boat. I've been using Linux as my primary OS for so many years (about 10, now) that a Windows or Mac machine feels hopelessly short of applications to me. I know the reality is the opposite...it's just that when I think, "I need to draw a new icon", I don't think "open Illustrator", I think "open Inkscape", and almost every "I need to..." thought involves the command line (because I work faster there, mostly), and Mac OS X and Windows are hopelessly baroque when it comes to the command line.

Then again, these days, I use so few "Linux only" applications that it would probably be easier than ever to switch. My "regular usage" list is: vim, Firefox, Thunderbird, Perl, bash (and all of the GNU tools, like sed, grep, find, locate, awk, etc.), GIMP, Inkscape, VNC, KVM. But I'd still have to have Linux boxes or virtual machines around, because I need build environments for a dozen or so Linux distributions. And bash and the GNU tools are so vital to my workflow that I'd be suffering a lot of the time.

So, I've considered getting a Mac so that I'd be surrounded by great design (I'm becoming more of a designer and usability guy within my company every day, and my design sense is still woefully inadequate for the job, and I've read on numerous occasions and from numerous sources that one great technique for improving is to surround yourself with great design), but it'd certainly be painful.

Also, middle-mouse-button paste is vital to my happiness, and neither Mac OSX nor Windows has it.

I've got all those "Linux only" applications working on Windows and OSX.

You may have to learn new shortcuts or how to configure things in Windows or OSX but it is all doable. For windows you may have to install Cygwin or PowerShell to get a respectable prompt.

I use a windows box at work. I use Mac and Windows at home. I recently switched from Ubuntu to OSX and I ran into many of the same problems initially. I wanted things to work exactly the same as Ubuntu and that just wasn't happening. After about three months I learned many of the OSX shortcuts and finally configured and set up my linux programs for OSX. Now it's all good.

I didn't say anything in my list was "Linux only". I said, "I use so few "Linux only" applications that it would probably be easier than ever to switch". So, basically, I was saying, there aren't very many Linux only apps anymore that I use regularly, but that my style of working would be uncomfortable on Windows or Mac.

So, my statement agrees with yours, I think.

I have worked in Windows environments quite a bit when doing contract work, and I'm familiar with Cygwin, but it's not an acceptable command line environment--the way it chafes when doing anything outside of the Cygwin environment is too much friction.

Mac OS X is slightly better now that it has bash by default. But its system tools are weak compared to those found on Linux systems. I feel this same pain when using Solaris and FreeBSD. In all three cases, it's possible to install good versions of those tools, but I have to retrain my fingers to call gawk instead of awk, etc.

Again, it would be easier than ever, because vim has good versions on both Mac and Win, and Perl runs fine everywhere. Firefox and Thunderbird, too. But retraining myself to work in the Mac or Windows way would be uncomfortable. And I hate being uncomfortable.

It's not a boat, it's a rusty old battleship, but the guns work :)

The new MBPs (and MacBooks?) have a two finger touchpad interface that I've found makes a huge difference in its usability - with one finger down already controlling the mouse a second finger essentially works as a mousewheel. I can use my MBP's touchpad fine but can't stand having to use my work dell laptops w/o that feature.

I wouldn't knock the MacBook too much. Under $1000 if you check Apple's refurb section (store.apple.com, scroll down and look in the left sidebar), and you can run Windows or Linux if you wind up hating Apple gear. Buy the cheap model and swap in your own larger HD and 4GB of RAM and you'll have quite a decent laptop for not a whole lot of money.

If you hate Apple, then I'd go with a ThinkPad personally, but I don't know what's good on that side of things.

One other thing I forgot to mention: Apple refurb gear carries the same 1-year warranty that new Apple gear does, and you still have the ability to buy AppleCare (extended warranty) on it.

Generally, you're not giving up a whole lot going refurb except a shinier box and the ability to BTO.

I think the MacBook is worth considering. I like its form factor better than the MBP's.

If I was unable to use an external screen for extended sessions at home I might favor the larger screen.

Who upmods these demonstratably false statements anyway? The falsehood gnomes? Huh?

MB/MBP runs TextMate, ThinkPad does not. That's the main difference.