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Re:Is everything an MLM by YeGoblynQueenne on Sunday April 21, 2019 @04:49AM (#19711224)
I think all of the above is very specific to higher-education in the US. I'm a PhD resarch student in a UK university and that's really not what I see from where I stand. And keep in mind that universities here too are for-pay and the tuition fees can be very high and the UK society has very much embraced free-market capitalism. And UK universities these days will take on just anyone for a PhD (see: me). But, really- Avon? I mean, come on.

Or perhaps it has to do with the field the author was in? I'm not sure what that was, but in my case, nobody has ever asked me to do any sort of "lab work" at all. I have been asked to help with invigilation and TA duties, because I receive a stipend from the dept. of eng. as part of my funding, and they "expect" you to do that sort of thing if you get funding from them, but I do get paid for my trouble and even my advisor has to mark exam papers (from courses he doesn't deliver himself) once in a while. Like, honestly, if this is exploitation I don't think my university is doing it right.

Re:Is everything an MLM by tomrod on Sunday April 21, 2019 @07:59AM (#19711682)
In the US I saw engineering labs using PhDs from abroad as almost slave labor. A bit hyperbolic perhaps, but the students were not allowed to progress without the advisor's say so, and the advisors would not allow them to top-author papers they were basically sole contributing. On top of that, between their own work and lab work, they were expected to put in 60 to 80 hours a week.

The point is, the power dynamics were out of whack.

Re:Is everything an MLM by javajosh on Sunday April 21, 2019 @10:58AM (#19712336)
>advisors would not allow them to top-author papers they were basically sole contributing

As an aside, how is this possible, or legal? Can't a student (can't anyone) submit a paper to a journal on their own? IIRC Einstein was a free-agent when he submitted all those papers in 1905.

Re:Is everything an MLM by jhbadger on Sunday April 21, 2019 @01:45PM (#19713385)
Modern science isn't a one-person affair. Few papers have single authorships nowadays because science is done in teams rather than by lone geniuses (and even in the case of Einstein it looks like his first wife, the mathematician Mileva Marić, should probably have been given co-authorships on some of those early papers). While some fields simply have authors listed in alphabetical order, many have special meaning to the first and last authors -- the first author is given to the person who supposedly contributed the most (which can be contentious; typically a grad student or post-doc) and the last author is given to the mentor of the first author.
Re:Is everything an MLM by tomrod on Sunday April 21, 2019 @12:07PM (#19712704)
It's been several years since I spoke to my friends who went through this, but from what I recall:

- Thread of retribution

- Claims of IP ownership, similar to how corporations in the US make claim to things developed on their time and their machinery

Re:Is everything an MLM by bitcoinmoney on Sunday April 21, 2019 @08:17AM (#19711744)
If you can churn out 1 paper every 3 months doing 8-5 that’s fine. The truth is that the incentive model is based on papers you published (to be subsequently used in NSF proposals). Hence, for most people that means working their ass off to churn out papers at a decent rate. I guess you could say something else is broken — like the way conferences have super low acceptance rates?
Re:Is everything an MLM by tmoot on Sunday April 21, 2019 @08:10AM (#19711711)
This hits close to home.
Re:Is everything an MLM by rleigh on Sunday April 21, 2019 @08:20AM (#19711752)
My understanding of arts and humanities PhDs is that they are largely self-funded, much fewer in number, and mostly vocational for the truly dedicated.

I think you might have a different perspective if you were to do a science PhD. It's exactly what is described. It can feel like you are low-wage labour. You are low-wage labour. From the academic group leads' point of view, your labour is "free" because you come into their lab with funding from a national funding body or charitable organisation (e.g. BBSRC, EPSRC, MRC, Wellcome Trust, Leverhulme Trust, Cancer Research UK etc.) and so you don't cost them a penny of their grant money other than in lab material costs, and you even get an allowance for that in your funding. Actual employed staff (Research Assistants, Research Technicians, Postdoctoral Researchers) cost them a full time salary on their grant applications.

There's a very wide pyramid structure, with PhD students being the base, topped by a much smaller number of Postdoctoral researchers, with a very small number of career academics on top. This imbalance is bad for several reasons. Firstly, the prospects for an academic career are dire. Most people leave after their PhD. Most of those that remain leave after one or two Postdocs. Those that remain attempt to climb the academic career ladder, but most of them will also fall off it, due to funding issues, lack of research success or the sheer stress and uncertainty of it all. Secondly, the glut of poorly-paid PhDs has eliminated entire categories of career positions. Research Technicians and Research Associates used to be good positions in organisations with long-term prospects. They are now almost nonexistent, and these people used to have huge amounts of knowledge which is now lost whenever the current PhD or Postdoc moves on. Postdoc positions are also a position which should not exist; it was a transition between training (PhD) and an academic position. It's now a decade-long limbo with poor prospects for most. In previous decades, existing academics could go straight into a fellowship.

If you spend four years of your early career doing a PhD, that's four years you get paid a minimal wage, work insane hours, for precious little to show. The chances of success are strongly weighted against you. That's four years you could be getting paid a proper salary, getting useful experience and being promoted, getting and paying off a mortgage, into a pension, starting a family etc. I went into one without considering all that. In hindsight, I enjoyed the research work and the environment for the most part, but it was strategically and financially a net negative, and I would struggle to recommend it to anyone. The numbers simply do not add up, and having a PhD doesn't give you better job prospects except for a few very niche roles. Experience, however, does open many more doors.

There are far, far too many PhD students. They could halve or quarter the number and make up the shortfall with permanent staff positions. Same for Postdocs. They could also use the saved funding to be able to fund grant applications without rejecting those which pay for qualified staff rather than unpaid students. That's a vicious circle which leads to systemic underestimation of the true cost of research work. The whole system is fundamentally not fit for purpose. There are too many people applying for limited amounts of funding, and this is the result of a race to the bottom since it's essentially cost-saving on salaries by employing cheap inexperienced labour through selling them a pipe dream.

Am I slightly embittered by the experience? Maybe a little. I now work in embedded programming for medical imaging and medical diagnostics. So the experience I gained did help a little. But it wasn't essential. I could have got there quite easily without it.

Re:Is everything an MLM by hopler on Sunday April 21, 2019 @09:06AM (#19711903)
PhD isn't exclusively for academic careers. Industry has scientist jobs.
Re:Is everything an MLM by rleigh on Sunday April 21, 2019 @10:14AM (#19712147)
While a PhD isn't necessarily "exclusively for academic careers", in practice this is the primary focus of the training undergone during one, including most of the career-oriented stuff. But it's a lie. The vast majority will leave during or after their PhD, or during or after a Postdoc. Which brings into question the entire premise of commencing one in the first place.

But the number of industrial scientist positions actually requiring a PhD is still much smaller, by far, than the number of PhDs coming out of the system. The vast majority are happy with an MSc or BSc, or equivalent industrial experience. Even accounting for non-academic careers, the number of current PhD students is unjustifiable and detrimental.