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Re:What is ZIL anyway? by bayesian_horse on Friday April 19, 2019 @10:46AM (#19700031)
Maybe there can be a new golden age of interactive fiction using modern NLP and other AI related technologies?
Re:What is ZIL anyway? by jordanpg on Friday April 19, 2019 @10:58AM (#19700134)
I enjoy thinking about the future of IF. I see it as a gaming/storytelling medium with a simultaneously huge potential but still vast chasms to cross before it gets there.

NLP etc. has great potential to improve the parsing capabilities, to be sure, but it's not obvious to me that that will dramatically improve the experience. Is `pick up the shiny brass thing` really better than `GET LAMP`? IMO, it might make IF more accessible to non-techy, non-text parser gamers, but that's about it.

I think the next leap for IF games will involve non-linear stories that are better suited to the medium. The success of games like "Papers, Please" in particular has sparked my imagination in this area.

Re:What is ZIL anyway? by willvarfar on Friday April 19, 2019 @11:16AM (#19700266)
I recall a Ludum Dare entrant which was an android app that pretended to be a walkie-talkie to control some security operatives you were telling to search a building to investigate some noises. Very spooky. And a very good use of some basic voice parsing and NLP.
Re:What is ZIL anyway? by reificator on Friday April 19, 2019 @12:03PM (#19700621)
Link please?

That is an incredibly ambitious concept for a game jam, but it sounds like they pulled it off?

Re:What is ZIL anyway? by willvarfar on Friday April 19, 2019 @12:31PM (#19700847)
Googling found it http://ludumdare.com/compo/ludum-dare-25/?action=preview&uid...

The gameplay video is awesome.

But perhaps not so much NLP... this was 2012! Was it really that long ago? And my memory was fuzzy.

But just imagine what could be possible!

Re:What is ZIL anyway? by klodolph on Friday April 19, 2019 @12:11PM (#19700684)
Game jams are literally the best time to try risky concepts. If it fails, you’ve spent only a small amount of time, and there’s a good chance that people will play your game and give you feedback. I can’t think of a better time to take a risk.

(Note: Parent comment edited risky -> ambitious.)

Re:What is ZIL anyway? by reificator on Friday April 19, 2019 @12:21PM (#19700762)
I didn't mean it was a risk in any negative sense. I was just looking for the word "ambitious" and couldn't find it in my sleep deprived state...

Seriously, I'm so tired I looked up "ballsy thesaurus" and clicked related words for probably five minutes before I gave up looking and just typed 'risky' hoping it'd be good enough.

Re:What is ZIL anyway? by alchemism on Friday April 19, 2019 @04:36PM (#19702776)
The most memorable IF I’ve played through was one[1] in which you were a captured spy being interrogated in semi-linear fashion. The game was a retelling of your capture, where every wrong choice amounted to ‘It could not have happened that way, go back and tell me what you really did.’

The only way to win was to slip one lie into the retelling, and then when the game catches up to the present moment...

[1]Spider and Web

Re:What is ZIL anyway? by gjm11 on Friday April 19, 2019 @04:55PM (#19702925)
Written by Andrew "Zarf" Plotkin, the person whose blog post about ZIL this is all a discussion of.
Re:What is ZIL anyway? by PaulHoule on Friday April 19, 2019 @11:45AM (#19700474)
Inform 7 lets you write games in a language that reads like English even if it doesn't write like English.
Re:What is ZIL anyway? by Zanni on Friday April 19, 2019 @04:58PM (#19702948)
Struggling with the limitations of the parser was one of the recurring frustrations with Infocom games. "GET LAMP" is fine, but anything more complex quickly becomes challenging. I remember getting stuck in "The Lurking Horror" because I couldn't figure out how to climb down off a ledge, despite having a ladder. Use ladder? Climb ladder? Climb down? Climb down with ladder? Climb ledge with ladder?
Re:What is ZIL anyway? by Drdrdrq on Saturday April 20, 2019 @01:55AM (#19705017)
So... What was it? :)
Re:What is ZIL anyway? by msla on Friday April 19, 2019 @11:42AM (#19700456)
The problem to solve is game length and replayability.

If you don't make moon logic puzzles, your puzzles can be solved relatively quickly unless you're very, very good at making fair puzzles which are also legitimately difficult. Therefore, you're going to need more puzzles than an FPS or action game which incidentally has some puzzles in order to achieve the same total game length, and making content like that is legitimately hard.

Similarly, in order to make your games playable more than once, you need branching paths, such that you have different routes for the players to go down each time, and I really shouldn't need to explain the concept of "combinatorial explosion" in this forum. Add to that the expense of things like art assents and voice acting (unless you really think text adventures are going to come back in a big way) and it becomes prohibitively expensive to not railroad everyone down one main plot with, at most, a few minor side-treks which quickly rejoin the main line.

Re:What is ZIL anyway? by bayesian_horse on Friday April 19, 2019 @01:37PM (#19701387)
The reason why IF Games are so focused on puzzles is that they essential can't do anything else. Even dialogs are either about solving a puzzle or choosing a branch in the story.

The point about AI in IF would be to break that mold. Dialogs can be more challenging, for example you could make a game about interrogating people. Or you could tell NPCs to do certain stuff for you. Or these NPCs could have some advanced planning or decision making.

To make IF more interesting, especially for those outside a very narrow niche, you would need them to be a lot easier to navigate, and offer more challenges that don't look like puzzles and don't hit you with a brain-twister at every turn.

Re:What is ZIL anyway? by munificent on Friday April 19, 2019 @03:45PM (#19702414)
> The reason why IF Games are so focused on puzzles

I don't follow the IF world closely (though I often want to set aside the time to get into it), but surely they are also heavily focused on the prose too?

If you treat the text as just an interface to get to the underlying formal game mechanics, then sure, IF is just simple puzzles because there's no hand-eye coordination going on.

But if you treat the text as a fundamental part of the experience, then the puzzles are only a small piece.

By analogy, films are the world's shittiest games because — even though the graphics are nice – the gameplay is obviously pretty meager. The player doesn't get to make any choices at all! But with a film, the graphics are the point.

Re:What is ZIL anyway? by chipotle_coyote on Friday April 19, 2019 @08:08PM (#19704038)
Particularly with newer games, this is absolutely true. There are a fair number of recent interactive fiction games that are leaning pretty heavily on the "fiction" part and, contra to the poster you're replying to, aren't necessarily focused on stumping you with puzzles. That's not to say that there aren't puzzle elements in almost all IF games, but increasingly, the language matters -- and sometimes it's woven into what puzzles there are.
Re:What is ZIL anyway? by bayesian_horse on Saturday April 20, 2019 @05:31AM (#19705589)
When IF focuses on prose, and doesn't contain puzzles, it's harder to actually call it a game.

The one benefit of text games over other types of games is that you can essentially implement whatever world you want, without a trillion Dollar budget for graphics and sounds effects. A holo-deck powered by imagination.

Speaking of games in holo-decks... The killer-app for AI-powered IF may be erotic fiction.

Re:What is ZIL anyway? by taradinoc on Saturday April 20, 2019 @12:02PM (#19707226)
>When IF focuses on prose, and doesn't contain puzzles, it's harder to actually call it a game.

This debate has been going on for decades. (See Photopia.)

Re:What is ZIL anyway? by jordanpg on Friday April 19, 2019 @12:21PM (#19700767)
This is why I think the "Papers, Please" paradigm is so interesting.

The overall storyline is replaced with a repetitive but novel task with increasing difficultly, and various other loosely coupled storylines are grafted onto the task in different ways. The task also replaces the explicit puzzles.

It is as though rather than being told the story, you are viewing vignettes of the story through a very narrow window

Re:What is ZIL anyway? by zantana on Friday April 19, 2019 @12:08PM (#19700658)
I do think there is a Sturgeon's Law problem where it's hard enough to come up with linear stories which are compelling. Based on some of the experimentalism in modern day game development in places like ichi.io hopefully they can come with some compelling genres

I'm not going to go down some half finished path in Bandersnatch when Black Mirror has enough problem with single stories.

Re:What is ZIL anyway? by PaulHoule on Friday April 19, 2019 @11:45AM (#19700481)
I want a procedurally generated version of Danganronpa.
Re:What is ZIL anyway? by sehugg on Friday April 19, 2019 @11:58AM (#19700578)
Versu was one such attempt, with an engine designed by the Sims 3 AI developer: https://versu.com/about/

Though I'd guess that's more of a sophisticated GOFAI than RNNs.

Re:What is ZIL anyway? by blacksmith_tb on Friday April 19, 2019 @12:26PM (#19700811)
Seems like smart speakers are a good fit, my eight year old spent a little while playing with an IF Alexa skill not long ago. Of course, backtracking leads to a lot of agonizing repetition, which isn't really different than seeing it in text, but at least there you can skim over descriptions you've already seen.
Re:What is ZIL anyway? by egypturnash on Friday April 19, 2019 @01:54PM (#19701522)
This is why "verbose/brief/superbrief" became a thing in IF.

Verbose: Always show the full description of a room when you enter it.

Brief: Show a short description when you re-enter a room.

Superbrief: Always show the short description.

(Regardless of which you chose, you could always 'look' to get a full description.)

Re:What is ZIL anyway? by gmueckl on Friday April 19, 2019 @01:41PM (#19701424)
Well, I would like to think that the ties of interactive fiction to text as the mode of interaction are likely the first to be broken.

Both speech recognition and speech synthesis have progressed by leaps and bounds. Computer graphics have progressed to a point where human characters can be made expressive and nuanced.

Imagine an engine that that takes games scripted as interactive fiction, procedurally generates the game world from the prose (far fetched, but first steps exist as research papers), populates it with the characters from the text and makes them act out the written dialog while honoring the implicit stage directions given in the written form ("he whispers in your ear" etc...). All of that presented in VR, which would make having a dialog with these virtual characters more natural.

Looking at the tech that exists today, I believe that we are about halfway there.

Re:What is ZIL anyway? by imglorp on Friday April 19, 2019 @01:14PM (#19701211)
I love this idea, but encourage people not to get hung up on the UI--ie how you interact with the game world--and instead think about what's going on in the game world.

What if the world included a number of fully independent agents with their own motivations, values, and policies and equipped with pattern matching, goal solving, optimization, and even a hint of common sense[1]. The game state would never be the same twice, and it would depend on how you interacted with the agents and they with each other.

TlDr: If you open a door, you might let the Grue out of its maze.

[1] https://github.com/AndrewSmart/opencyc

Re:What is ZIL anyway? by bayesian_horse on Friday April 19, 2019 @01:30PM (#19701326)
I would suggest dialogs as the main focus for AI.

I don't believe "complex and dynamic" NPCs would work well enough to make a fun game.

Re:What is ZIL anyway? by egypturnash on Friday April 19, 2019 @01:52PM (#19701508)
I suspect that making it not feel like you're pushing buttons to get the same lines of dialogue out of wandering bots is going to require solving some pretty hard AI problems.

You could probably make it work now with, say, a game world full of broken robots or something.