News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:How the Boeing 737 Max disaster looks to a software Devel... by ncmncm on Thursday April 18, 2019 @07:31PM (#19695690)
Ultimately it was not a technical failure: the failure was in allowing the plane to be sold with such a thoroughly bad design. Thus, a management and regulatory failure. Regulatory, because FAA signed off on it, obviously without applying any of the process that would have prevented it. Management, because the cost of this debacle will be many, many times what they saved by trying to skate by with a faulty design.
Re:How the Boeing 737 Max disaster looks to a software Devel... by reacweb on Friday April 19, 2019 @03:56AM (#19697819)
I think the blame shall be entirely on the management of Boeing. The engineering details are mainly a plea against management.
Re:How the Boeing 737 Max disaster looks to a software Devel... by robertAngst on Friday April 19, 2019 @07:26AM (#19698609)
You watched the VOX video and are reposting the summery here?

They are going to fix the software with no changes to the design.

They don't need to change the design, that would be expensive overkill. Software updates are as close as we can get to Free. There is not a single company or human with infinite money to spend on anything, we can't always have the fantasy.

Re:How the Boeing 737 Max disaster looks to a software Devel... by kakwa_ on Friday April 19, 2019 @08:24AM (#19698965)
The MAX can be fixed by addressing the flaws in MCAS, and it will be in the end. The production will resume, the MAX will be a slightly less commercial success than it should have been, Boeing will be fined a few Billions for its failings, the FAA will have to take an hard look at itself, and everything will be ok.

I just hope the correct conclusions will be learnt from this crash:

* have a truly independent certification process

* don't fix your physical design issues with software

* don't write and maintain software running on an airplane like the software from the start-up world: significant design flaws are not tolerable for software running in an airplane, even if they can be fixed easily.

* don't hide new systems, if there is a new system, then pilot should be trained

by the way, it's not the first time a new system caught pilot by surprised because they didn't knew about it. SAS Flight 751 is another example, ice ingestion damaged the engines, the pilots reduced the thrust to reduce stress, but an automatic system (ATR, Automatic Thrust Restoration), unknown to the pilots, put the thrust back to full power, disintegrating the engines, the plane fortunately crash landed without fatalities thanks to the pilots skills and a bit of luck.

* Boeing should really think about replacing the 737, the old design is putting too much constraints, preventing a clean design.

Re:How the Boeing 737 Max disaster looks to a software Devel... by blackflame7000 on Friday April 19, 2019 @09:49PM (#19704361)
Its not very easy to redesign the 737. Bigger Engines need more clearance. More clearance requires longer landing gear. Longer landing gear requires a wider plane to fold up into. A wider plane is less fuel efficient and needs bigger engines and suddenly you are a 757,767,787, or 777
Re:How the Boeing 737 Max disaster looks to a software Devel... by pm24601 on Monday April 22, 2019 @11:30AM (#19719655)
> Its not very easy to redesign the 737.

Too bad. I know I am now permanently reluctant to fly 737s

Re:How the Boeing 737 Max disaster looks to a software Devel... by blackflame7000 on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @09:37AM (#19728409)
You really shouldn't be. There is a lot of misconception going around that the 737 is inherently unstable. This is not true. The 737-600/700/800/900 was one of the safest designs ever built (http://www.airsafe.com/events/models/rate_mod.htm). Yet of the few crashes it had, a surprising amount was from pilot disorientation causing them to accidentally stall the plane.

MCAS is not a feature to correct an unstable aircraft, it's to correct a confused pilot. MCAS is triggered if the following circumstances are right: 1) The airspeed is near stalling speed (takeoffs and landings) 2) The AOA (as reported by both sensors now) is greater than the aircraft can climb.

The problem was that 1) the AOA data was faulty, 2) it did not check if there was a disagreement with the backup system 3) The aircraft failed to reset each time it took corrective measures such that each the correction was compounded. 4) the corrective action was 3 times more than approved.

All of these things have been fixed but it also shows how many things have to go wrong for something to be catastrophic. But the max has been built on a solid foundation and that's much better than having to start from scratch.

Re:How the Boeing 737 Max disaster looks to a software Devel... by Cacti on Thursday April 18, 2019 @08:26PM (#19696012)
The airlines knew what they were doing when they didn’t pay for the “upgrade” and they doubly knew when they didn’t pay for it after the first crash. Airline management is just as culpable in this debacle.
Re:How the Boeing 737 Max disaster looks to a software Devel... by InclinedPlane on Thursday April 18, 2019 @11:33PM (#19696901)
This is bonkers. Nobody anywhere in the world should expect that one buys an airplane which is unsafe by design. Also, the idea that there are two versions of a plane, one that kills people and one that doesn't, and if you buy the wrong one that's completely your fault is just insane.
Re:How the Boeing 737 Max disaster looks to a software Devel... by Cacti on Friday April 19, 2019 @09:30PM (#19704306)
Frankly, you have no idea what you're talking about. This is how the airline industry works. Airlines WANT cheap planes and they ARE WILLING to and DO skimp on some safety features to save money. Airlines WANT safety features, at least some of them, to be optional so that they aren't forced to spend money on them if they don't want them.

For example, backup fire extinguishers in the cockpit? Optional. Extra oxygen masks? Optional. Advanced radar? Optional. There are hundreds of items like this on every model, whether it's Boeing or Airbus or someone else, because their customers WANT them to be optional.

And by the way, not all airlines do this. American paid for the upgrades. Southwest paid for the upgrades.

So maybe you should ask yourself why it is that Lion Air and Ethiopian Air were willing to spend huge amounts of money on a new jet, then spend some $1-$2 million on optional upgrades, and yet not include the MCAS upgrade in those options (and they were made well aware of it, as you can see from other airliners purchase of these upgrades). Or for that matter maybe you should ask why Lion Air knew that the plane was having trouble with the AoA sensors for several flights prior to the crash, and yet did not perform the required maintenance on them (a serious violation) and did not pass along information to its next crews (also a serious violation), who were caught completely unaware.

Airlines run at 2, 3% margin, and they do so by trimming costs at every possible area. Sometimes those areas are safety related. Airlines are not some doe-eyed naive little up who just trust whatever Big Boeing/Airbus tells them. They know how the planes work, they have their own pilots, they have their own engineering teams, they have their own specialists and experts, and they make decisions to sacrifice safety for savings, and they do it ALL THE TIME.

Re:How the Boeing 737 Max disaster looks to a software Devel... by InclinedPlane on Saturday April 20, 2019 @03:28AM (#19705271)
There's plenty I could say in answer to this but most of it is unnecessary.

There is no excuse for a company such as Boeing, working under the regulation of the FAA, to produce any version of any model of plane which is fundamentally unsafe to fly. Period. None.

We're done here.

Re:How the Boeing 737 Max disaster looks to a software Devel... by Cacti on Saturday April 20, 2019 @08:43AM (#19706235)
Life must be great in black and white.
Re:How the Boeing 737 Max disaster looks to a software Devel... by ReGenGen on Friday April 19, 2019 @01:01AM (#19697212)
The 80K upgrade was simply a AOA disagree warning light and has zero affect on MCAS behavior. There is no evidence that airlines were told about MCAS until the Lion Air accident.
Re:How the Boeing 737 Max disaster looks to a software Devel... by ncmncm on Thursday April 18, 2019 @09:24PM (#19696281)
There is more than enough blame to go around. E.g., Congress, for the last N decades, failing to fund FAA at levels clearly needed.
Re:How the Boeing 737 Max disaster looks to a software Devel... by schraeds on Friday April 19, 2019 @01:13AM (#19697254)
Beyond funding is the issue of regulatory capture. The FAA is too cozy with the plane manufacturers, allowing them to help test,certify,document their own products.

The biggest overarching change I would like to see is the abandonment of allowing manufacturers to extend the type rating of airframes indefinitely and designing to avoid costly recertification and training vs a true focus on safety and innovation.

Re:How the Boeing 737 Max disaster looks to a software Devel... by kadendogthing on Thursday April 18, 2019 @09:03PM (#19696191)
Yeah, they willingly bought these planes. Airlines should be held as equable responsible.
Re:How the Boeing 737 Max disaster looks to a software Devel... by bronson on Friday April 19, 2019 @12:13AM (#19697051)
You’re saying that Boeing intentionally sold unsafe airplanes? And the airlines, knowing this, still bought them?
Re:How the Boeing 737 Max disaster looks to a software Devel... by kadendogthing on Friday April 19, 2019 @09:44AM (#19699525)
I'm giving money to the airlines. Not Boeing.

>You’re saying that Boeing intentionally sold unsafe airplanes?

Yes.

>And the airlines, knowing this

You know airlines have their own engineering teams, right? And they were bought explicitly to save money.