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Re:Big tech lobbying gutted a bill that would ban recording ... by MereInterest on Sunday April 14, 2019 @12:55AM (#19657678)
The type and amount of data transmitted, and the type and amount of data preserved depend on what is being done. Exceeding the minimum amount of data transmitted/preserved is a violation of privacy.

- Case 1: local action, such as playing music, making a calendar event, setting an alarm. These have no need to be sent to

- Case 2: remote action, such as performing a search. The audio can be parsed locally, with the search terms then sent externally to get the results.

In neither case is it necessary to send the raw audio anywhere. In neither case is it necessary to record the audio for future use.

Re:Big tech lobbying gutted a bill that would ban recording ... by microcolonel on Sunday April 14, 2019 @01:13AM (#19657715)
> The audio can be parsed locally

Speech recognition doesn't work like that, there's no yacc/lex for you to just "run locally". Device-local recognition is limited, and not very agile. It often takes years for it to recognize new words, and it usually has extreme bias toward a handful of urban centres.

I don't like sending my data away, and I choose not to, but it is simply not realistic to expect Google-quality or Amazon-quality continuous real time speech recognition and nlp to happen entirely on-device.

Re:Big tech lobbying gutted a bill that would ban recording ... by stordoff on Sunday April 14, 2019 @02:22AM (#19657889)
> Speech recognition doesn't work like that, there's no yacc/lex for you to just "run locally"

Why not? It _could_:

> In our recent paper, "Streaming End-to-End Speech Recognition for Mobile Devices", we present a model trained using RNN transducer (RNN-T) technology that is compact enough to reside on a phone. This means no more network latency or spottiness — the new recognizer is always available, even when you are offline. [...]

> The RNN-T we trained offers the same accuracy as the traditional server-based models

https://ai.googleblog.com/2019/03/an-all-neural-on-device-sp...

Re:Big tech lobbying gutted a bill that would ban recording ... by TeMPOraL on Sunday April 14, 2019 @07:37AM (#19658790)
> Why not? It _could_:

It did. Anyone remembers the good ol' Microsoft Speech API of ~Windows 2000/XP era?

Re:Big tech lobbying gutted a bill that would ban recording ... by macawfish on Sunday April 14, 2019 @04:25AM (#19658186)
This is really cool!
Re:Big tech lobbying gutted a bill that would ban recording ... by michaelmrose on Sunday April 14, 2019 @02:42AM (#19657942)
You can already run an offline google translate that will not only recognize your words but translate it to a foreign language.
Re:Big tech lobbying gutted a bill that would ban recording ... by gbear605 on Sunday April 14, 2019 @01:42PM (#19660631)
On my Mac, I can download the Apple speech recognition software and it accurately recognizes all of my speech. I’m not from an urban area and it does a great job recognizing new words. It takes under 10 gigabytes of storage, if I remember correctly. So I don’t know what you’re on about.
Re:Big tech lobbying gutted a bill that would ban recording ... by huffmsa on Sunday April 14, 2019 @08:58AM (#19659155)
Of course you can run it locally. The model / dictionary vector files you need are measured in the 10s of MB. Unless you're Apple and still consider a 128GB SSD an acceptable base storage size, you can and should have room for multiple dictionaries and models.
Re:Big tech lobbying gutted a bill that would ban recording ... by maxxxxx on Sunday April 14, 2019 @01:01AM (#19657689)
Totally agree. The raw audio shouldn't be sent back or at a minimum not stored.
Re:Big tech lobbying gutted a bill that would ban recording ... by sokoloff on Sunday April 14, 2019 @06:17AM (#19658505)
The speech recognition is running remotely, only wakeword recognition is local on most of the devices.
Re:Big tech lobbying gutted a bill that would ban recording ... by TeMPOraL on Sunday April 14, 2019 @07:36AM (#19658786)
Which is really a problem that needs to be solved. Just because it's cheaper to do something in the cloud, doesn't mean it should be done in the cloud.
Re:Big tech lobbying gutted a bill that would ban recording ... by sokoloff on Sunday April 14, 2019 @07:44AM (#19658820)
IMO, it's cheaper and (importantly) better to do it in the cloud. Better in there's steady improvement to customer experience with zero customer interaction, a cleaner developer "apps" marketplace, and each local device can be smaller, cheaper, and lower power.
Re:Big tech lobbying gutted a bill that would ban recording ... by frolig on Sunday April 14, 2019 @08:53AM (#19659124)
Not if it implies violating customer privacy. As a company you either have a customer or an employee - you can't have it both ways. There is one way it is ethical: when you have the informed consent of volunteers. That works for charities because there is no money being exchanged to corrupt the interaction.

IMO the only appropriate context for gaining training data is when you're explicitly paying people for that.

Informed consent does not mix with volunteering to make money for a private company. That people are ignorant does not justify abusing them.

Re:Big tech lobbying gutted a bill that would ban recording ... by TeMPOraL on Sunday April 14, 2019 @08:21AM (#19658968)
Except that fully local tasks now cannot be done fully locally, more data than needed for the task is leaked to the service provider, and the whole thing becomes a centralized ordeal. It turns into a single service what should be a product giving access to mulitple services. It offers degraded user experience due to latency (reason #1 I don't use voice assistants, #2 being not much useful to be done with them if I can't trivially write code gluing them with stuff I have in my house), stops working completely when there's not Internet connection (Internet isn't and can never be as reliable as power), and I'm doubtful of how significant power benefits are once you account for the power that's used by various routers to transmit your voice to the cloud and get the results back.
Re:Big tech lobbying gutted a bill that would ban recording ... by sokoloff on Sunday April 14, 2019 @09:36AM (#19659334)
Power and cost benefits from the perspective of the end user. I have a device that draws under 10W that is (as far as I'm concerned) capable of world-class and ever-improving voice recognition and interaction. That a service provider or set of service providers are providing me temporary use of kilowatts of computing computing power that I don't ever see a bill for is irrelevant from the perspective of "is it worth me paying $40 and $5 of electricity per year to have a tiny voice assistant?" vs "is it worth me paying $500 and $75/year in power for a fully local, larger, and inferior solution?"

It's unsurprising to me that the market evolved towards the former as the latter would almost surely be a commercial failure.

Re:Big tech lobbying gutted a bill that would ban recording ... by TeMPOraL on Sunday April 14, 2019 @11:12AM (#19659847)
I'm not surprised by the way the market evolved either, but I consider it a bug, not a feature. I'm a firm believer that if something is to be done, it deserves at least an attempt at doing it right. The product version would be a commercial failure only because it has to compete with the service version; the story would be different if the service version wasn't allowed to exist in the first place.

Also let's not overestimate the involvement of the cloud in the actual voice recognition. With ML models, it's the training of a model that's expensive, not the actual use of that model. I don't see a reason why voice models, once trained, couldn't be run on the device, at a slightly increased cost of compute (of which phones have plenty). It would be fair and good engineering to provide models in exchange for payment.

And no, I don't buy "it's not that simple", because I've worked with MS Speech API over a decade ago, on much slower hardware and on a shitty microphone I soldered myself from parts, and it did work well enough in "fixed grammar" mode after a bit of training with various sources of background noise (read: very loud music). I don't believe there's any technical obstacle; the decision to run this in a cloud is a purely business one, and like many modern business models, this one is geared towards extracting value from purported customers, not giving value to them.

Re:Big tech lobbying gutted a bill that would ban recording ... by sokoloff on Sunday April 14, 2019 @11:38AM (#19659999)
> would be different if the service version wasn't allowed to exist in the first place.

Agreed 100%. However, I'm very reluctant to use laws to prevent people from choosing the things that they decide are best for them on the premise that I/we know better.

The hurdle for my determination that I know better what's good for someone else and to restrict their choice to conform to my superior knowledge is extraordinarily high.

Re:Big tech lobbying gutted a bill that would ban recording ... by TeMPOraL on Sunday April 14, 2019 @11:44AM (#19660040)
That's a fair point. And although I didn't explicitly said "laws", I guess I meant that.

My view comes from being tired of seeing how the market forces always incentivize the most scummy garbage that can be gotten away with. The only control point we have here is the "gotten away with" part. I'm not very into telling other people how they should live, but a stable and happy society does require some of that.

(That said, I currently have very little influence over this, so I resort to what little of a market signal is created by ranting about this publicly, voting with my wallet, and discouraging people from using solutions that are user-hostile.)