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Re:Nassim Talebs case against Nate Silver is bad math by tcbawo on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @04:25PM (#19618596)
Loads of people criticized Silver for not having "predicted" Trump's electoral victory. I imagine Silver's language was trying to hand-hold people to an understanding that even 20% probability events happen 1 out of 5 times. With so many people trying to twist and spin every headline, prediction, number, I appreciate Silver's attempt to make a reasonable guess with transparent methodologies.
Re:Nassim Talebs case against Nate Silver is bad math by bambax on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @06:48PM (#19619747)
I have a hard time understanding this: what does it mean to assign probabilities to one-off events?? The only way to verify probabilities predictions is to test it a great number of times. Otherwise you can say anything and never be wrong (except for 0 or 100%).
Re:Nassim Talebs case against Nate Silver is bad math by roenxi on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @07:50PM (#19620224)
Those questions underpin big chunks of philosophy.

Assigning a probability to a one-off event is enumerating all the ways it could happen, all the ways it could not happen and assigning a probability to each of those ways. Obviously there is a lot of guesswork; but if you need to make a decision based on the future that approach gives you a much better chance of making a good decision. In practice an event will be made up of components that are more predictable than the whole, and some real uncertainties. There is a lot to be gained by thinking hard about the situation, and assigning a probability will do that.

Silly example - how do I estimate my risk of falling climbing up a set of stairs that I've never climbed before?

* Baseline risk of tripping - I have a lifetime of data.

* Increase of risk being on a staircase - I have an area I want to put my foot on (a specific step) that is about 1/3 of the area that my foot usually falls in, so that increases the risk by an amount that can be reasonably estimated.

* I will watch my foot - maybe an order of magnitude improvement in precision.

This is enough to let me estimate the risk of carrying a bulky object (that obscures my view of my feet) up a staircase. I've isolated the uncertainty (how much does visual observation change the odds) from the certainties (areas, background rate).

Now I can take that to several experts who will identify new mechanisms and tighten up my estimations on how big a deal the components are. In this way - even though the final % I come to would still be a bit arbitrary - it is starting to become a summary of what a large number of people think about the inputs to the problem and their relative magnitudes. Being able to communicate all that thinking with a single number is a miracle in its own way.

Re:Nassim Talebs case against Nate Silver is bad math by mr_toad on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @08:19PM (#19620423)
It’s not that the election itself is subject to random uncertainty so much as the data that they are using to make the prediction is.

The data might favour one candidate, but even assuming it is unbiased and representative, it is only a random sample, and there is a chance it could be randomly wrong.

Re:Nassim Talebs case against Nate Silver is bad math by tim333 on Wednesday April 10, 2019 @10:05AM (#19624724)
You can bet money on one off events. People and bookies do this frequently and you can see if they loose or win.

But the betting odds depend on how much knowledge you have - for someone with perfect knowledge the odds may be 0 or 1, if you know nothing you might guess 50:50 for practical purposes.

Re:Nassim Talebs case against Nate Silver is bad math by credit_guy on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @10:13PM (#19621172)
Every event is a one-off event. In particular the Trump election was the most one-off event in recent memory :)

Kidding aside, your observation is correct, you need to perform repeated predictions. 538 does just that. They keep predicting a whole lot of outcomes, so you can check their track record. They even have a challenge for the audience, where you can record your own predictions and compare them with their corresponding predictions (see for example [1] for NFL games). The scoring of the predictions uses the Brier score [2], which is just a version of R-squared for classification problems.

In the case of the November 2016 election, other prediction sites were giving the Trump team a 1-2% chance, 538 was giving them a 20% change. Considering that, 538 comes out as the clear winner.

Which brings us to what I consider to be the best measure of prediction accuracy (my own invention, it doesn't have a scientific name yet): you can compare two sequences of predictions (let's say yours agains 538) by simulating bets at some mid-odds level. For example if I say Trump's probability of winning 2020 is 45% and you say it's 35%, then I'm willing to give you 2-to-3 odds, while you're willing to take that. We then see who stays ahead most of the time in this betting simulation.

For what is worth, here's a recent survey of different scoring types for predictions: "Assessing the performance of prediction models: a framework for traditional and novel measures" [3]

[1] https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nfl-predictions-game/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brier_score [3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20010215

Re:Nassim Talebs case against Nate Silver is bad math by Izkata on Wednesday April 10, 2019 @01:03AM (#19621991)
> In the case of the November 2016 election, other prediction sites were giving the Trump team a 1-2% chance, 538 was giving them a 20% change. Considering that, 538 comes out as the clear winner.

One common mistake I've seen is people mistaking that 20% as the expected vote ratio. It definitely wasn't; that was hidden behind an apparently too-well-hidden toggle (buttons above the graph), and was floating around 45% Trump and 48% Clinton, with overlapping error ranges.

Re:Nassim Talebs case against Nate Silver is bad math by thousandautumns on Wednesday April 10, 2019 @10:07AM (#19624748)
You can't verify probabilities for any single given event, but you can look at the outcomes for all events for which predicted probabilities were given, and use that to estimate the accuracy of the methodology/models used.

So, for example, when 538 said that Trump had a 30% chance of winning, its hard to say how accurate that was given it was a one time event. But if you look over all of their election predictions, and look at those they predicted to win 30% of the time, about 30% of them should have been victories (with some margin for error, of course). If 50% were victories, or only 10%, then maybe that would indicate their models aren't doing so hot.

Re:Nassim Talebs case against Nate Silver is bad math by jandrese on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @04:46PM (#19618787)
The same people were criticizing him a day before because everybody else had Hillary at a 99% chance to win. Nate tweets that Trump is one standard polling error away from winning and people scoffed.
Re:Nassim Talebs case against Nate Silver is bad math by seambot1 on Wednesday April 10, 2019 @07:18AM (#19623559)
I remember him saying before the election that the odds of Trump winning we're roughly the odds of a randomly picked day being a Saturday. Which always seemed pretty clear to me - Saturdays definitely happen, Trump could definitely happen. And then it did, and it was nothing like a Saturday, not at all.
Re:Nassim Talebs case against Nate Silver is bad math by Someone1234 on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @05:03PM (#19618907)
It is worth noting that 538 doesn't keep a historical record of their predictions, making it difficult to really see how they predict outcomes coming up to a conclusion. You can only see the latest/final prediction.

538 also predicted lower chances of victory in the weeks and months leading up to that, then adjusted it on election day vanishing away their earlier guesses. This isn't wrong on the face of it, but people infer from the final datapoint to the conclusion later that same day about 538's accuracy.

What I am saying is: 538 needs to keep a historical record of their predictions.

Re:Nassim Talebs case against Nate Silver is bad math by dragonwriter on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @05:22PM (#19619058)
> It is worth noting that 538 doesn't keep a historical record of their predictions, making it difficult to really see how they predict outcomes coming up to a conclusion. You can only see the latest/final prediction.

It's worth noting that you are completely wrong: not only do they keep such a record, they also provide a handy chart of it on the latest prediction page so you can easily see exactly how the prediction changed over time.

Re:Nassim Talebs case against Nate Silver is bad math by Someone1234 on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @09:06PM (#19620729)
Where? Go ahead and link to it.
Re:Nassim Talebs case against Nate Silver is bad math by tweezy on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @09:13PM (#19620779)
Hey I don't have a dog in this fight, but I think this is the link you're looking for.

https://github.com/fivethirtyeight/checking-our-work-data

Re:Nassim Talebs case against Nate Silver is bad math by Someone1234 on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @10:04PM (#19621098)
Nope. I'm looking for 538's predictions. You cannot go from the raw data they used back to how they interpreted it.
Re:Nassim Talebs case against Nate Silver is bad math by wilg on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @10:44PM (#19621336)
Here is the historical data for the 2018 House forecast:

- Web: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2018-midterm-election-f...

- JSON: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2018-midterm-election-f...

You are correct they do not publish the exact math of the forecasts, but you can see how the forecast changed over time.

Re:Nassim Talebs case against Nate Silver is bad math by tweezy on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @10:49PM (#19621364)
The link I provided does actually show every single forecast 538 has ever made. OP was wrong when they said it was the raw data they use to make the predictions. Check out the link I provided, it has everything OP was asking for.
Re:Nassim Talebs case against Nate Silver is bad math by wilg on Friday April 12, 2019 @08:16PM (#19650196)
Nice! I didn’t poke into it much further cause I knew about this one.
Re:Nassim Talebs case against Nate Silver is bad math by tweezy on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @10:35PM (#19621292)
Please look at the actual data on the linked page. Each of the csv files on that page has thousands of predictions 538 made going back as far as 2008. This isn't the raw data they used to make the predictions, these are the actual predications that they made.

Edit: For example, here are the headers on the file named presidential_elections.csv

year,office,state,district,election_date,forecast_date,forecast_type,party,candidate,projected_voteshare,actual_voteshare,probwin,probwin_outcome

These are the actual forecasts they made for presidential elections going all the way back to 2008.

Re:Nassim Talebs case against Nate Silver is bad math by wtallis on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @05:06PM (#19618925)
Re:Nassim Talebs case against Nate Silver is bad math by KC8ZKF on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @05:14PM (#19618982)
The 2016 election predictions are still posted. https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/...
Re:Nassim Talebs case against Nate Silver is bad math by Someone1234 on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @09:05PM (#19620724)
Yes the newest one. Not the historical ones.
Re:Nassim Talebs case against Nate Silver is bad math by hencq on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @09:26PM (#19620864)
Maybe I misunderstand your argument, but doesn't that linked page have a section "How the forecast has changed"[1]?

[1] https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/...

Re:Nassim Talebs case against Nate Silver is bad math by dandelany on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @05:11PM (#19618957)
Maybe this was true of past elections, but their 2018 house forecast had a “how this forecast has changed” section that showed their historical predictions throughout election season. It’s still visible here: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2018-midterm-election-f...
Re:Nassim Talebs case against Nate Silver is bad math by dragonwriter on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @05:25PM (#19619087)
> Maybe this was true of past elections, but their 2018 house forecast had a “how this forecast has changed” section that showed their historical predictions throughout election season.

It has not changed. They did this the whole way back when it was an independent blog before the NY Times (later ESPN then ABC News) picked them up.

Re:Nassim Talebs case against Nate Silver is bad math by Someone1234 on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @09:06PM (#19620736)
Where are they? Five different posters have claimed this, but zero have been able to link to the historical predictions.
Re:Nassim Talebs case against Nate Silver is bad math by dragonwriter on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @09:16PM (#19620800)
> Where are they? Five different posters have claimed this, but zero have been able to link to the historical predictions.

They are literally charted on the page with the current prediction, e.g., for the 2016 Presidential race (which is locked on the last forecast):

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/ , under “How the forecast has changed”, it charts the forecast (by default, the win probability) for the entire time the race was being forecast.