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Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by deweller on Friday April 05, 2019 @08:10AM (#19581701)
I genuinely don't understand the argument that tech companies are hurting society by providing lower paying gig-economy jobs.

By providing more jobs, these companies are increasing options for workers looking for jobs. No one is forcing Uber drivers to drive passengers.

If there is a shortage of labor, then the prices paid to workers will increase due to market forces. If there is not a shortage of labor, then people that need jobs are finding them.

Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by i_am_proteus on Friday April 05, 2019 @08:29AM (#19581829)
Because workers often stake their livelihoods on a single source of income. This is perilous enough when the source of income is result of them making contributions to the economy at the actual market rate.

But there is nothing "market rate" about rank-and-file work for a company that's pouring gasoline on VC money and setting it ablaze. If demand for your labor is only due to artificially low prices, that demand will evaporate once growth targets are met.

See also: existing business that was disrupted. If the new service is not actually more efficient and was only able to undercut existing players on price because of VC money, there are no real long-term winners on the ground. Sure, maybe some founders, early employees, and investors net a tidy profit, but that profit isn't based on an actual economic contribution if the product isn't viable after the VC spigot gets turned off

Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by scarface74 on Friday April 05, 2019 @08:55AM (#19582015)
Are you just referring to gig economy workers or white collar workers who are also getting six figure incomes based on VC money? How much less would even profitable companies have to pay for white collar workers if they didn’t have to compete with VC funded startups and there were bunch of people out of work because VC funding dried up?
Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by fabricexpert on Friday April 05, 2019 @08:18AM (#19581756)
It’s not the volume of jobs, it’s the quality.

Driving a taxi or delivering food is a pretty bad job, doing it as a self employed contractor is almost criminal. You have to cover all your own expenses and have no guarantee of work, with zero progression (ever heard of an Uber driving saving up and staring their own minicab business?). It’s a terrible economic decision.

The market does not correct for this as it is entirely controlled by a small group of companies.

Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by gpapilion on Friday April 05, 2019 @09:15AM (#19582170)
the quality of these jobs have changed over time. Originally an Uber driver told me he he was clearing $4000 a week a few years back(incentives, surge pricing, etc). Now not much has changed for me, but there pay structure has changed significantly.
Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by countryqt30 on Friday April 05, 2019 @08:30AM (#19581833)
Again, nobody forces you to do this so what's the point?
Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by onion2k on Friday April 05, 2019 @08:49AM (#19581975)
I think you're demonstrating a point of view that's tragically common here on HN - you're assuming that people are never desperate, and that they always have an alternative to choose instead. Many people are in the position where they only have one option and have to pick that to earn a living. That's not strictly being forced to work a job that sucks, but the reality is they don't have a choice if the alternative is starving or losing their home.

So sure, nobody is forcing anyone to drive for Uber, but there are people who have to drive for Uber because they don't have any other opportunities in the short term.

Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by iamkroot on Saturday April 06, 2019 @02:55AM (#19589636)
What were these people doing before they started driving for Uber? Presumably they decided that being a driver was a better use of their time and that's why they made the switch.
Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by p_roz on Friday April 05, 2019 @09:15AM (#19582168)
If you remove the opportunity to earn some money with gig work, you are forcing them into their next best alternative, which is starving or losing their home. I don’t see how that makes people better off.
Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by danaris on Friday April 05, 2019 @11:45AM (#19583662)
The "gig work" jobs crowd out other, better-paying and/or better-benefited jobs because the companies brokering them (Uber, Lyft, etc) are able to operate without turning a profit.

It doesn't help that these jobs often have an attractive shine to them up front—fast, easy money! all you have to do is drive around!—but hide lots of costs—like massively increased wear and tear on your car—that there's no advertisement about, and no help in covering. If you have to keep driving to keep food on the table, it's also that much harder to take the time required to find a better job (though admittedly, that's not really qualitatively different from most low-end hourly-paid jobs, though it may be quantitatively, if your expenses end up wiping out enough of the income that you're effectively getting less than minimum wage).

Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by barry-cotter on Friday April 05, 2019 @09:08AM (#19582117)
> I think you're demonstrating a point of view that's tragically common here on HN - you're assuming that people are never desperate, and that they always have an alternative to choose instead.

Indeed. The minimum wage should be $20 an hour. If you can’t earn that much then you should be on the dole.

Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by fabricexpert on Friday April 05, 2019 @08:44AM (#19581941)
Do you really think people doing gig economy jobs have alternatives? It's not a "lifestyle choice", it's literally looking around and saying what can I do that will pay my bills, today. And if these are the only options available this is what you "choose".
Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by barry-cotter on Friday April 05, 2019 @09:16AM (#19582177)
People do in fact have options. They look at them and they choose. Lots of people choose to work in the gig economy for reasons you obviously don’t value. Working Uber beats working many other jobs, as should be obvious by the fact people continue doing it. People aren’t idiots. You can fool some of them some of the time. You can’t fool many people about their own lives and experiences for long.

> The value of flexible work: Evidence from uber drivers

> Using data on hourly earnings for Uber drivers, we document the ways in which drivers utilize this real-time flexibility and we estimate the driver surplus generated by this flexibility. We estimate how drivers’ reservation wages vary from hour to hour, which allows us to examine the surplus and supply implications of both flexible and traditional work arrangements. Our results indicate that, while the Uber relationship may have other drawbacks, Uber drivers benefit significantly from real-time flexibility, earning more than twice the surplus they would in less flexible arrangements. If required to supply labor inflexibly at prevailing wages, they would also reduce the hours they supply by more than two-thirds.

https://www.nber.org/papers/w23296.pdf

Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by iamkroot on Saturday April 06, 2019 @02:57AM (#19589642)
What were the drivers doing before Uber existed? Were all of them unemployed and unable to find any other means of employment?
Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by howeyc on Friday April 05, 2019 @08:57AM (#19582023)
Right, but without the gig economy jobs they'd have less possibilities for income.
Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by ivanbakel on Friday April 05, 2019 @09:14AM (#19582157)
Which would also mean the need for real jobs is honestly represented.

This is a major debate in West at the moment, and in the UK it's synonymous with the term "zero-hour contracts": is it somehow OK to suppress unemployment figures by nominally employing more people but giving each one a smaller share of all the labour, and so, wages?

If the gig economy unsustainably employs people at cut-throat rates, then the statistics look good, and that spins the public opinion. Why would workers complain that they can't pay the bills if there are so many jobs out there? In fact, employment for peanuts is worse than no employment at all, because it is a lie perpetuated to try to avoid having to really deal with the issue of job poverty.

Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by howeyc on Friday April 05, 2019 @09:56AM (#19582487)
I don't understand what you're getting at. So offering someone employment (do this for money) should only be allowed if it's at a consistent frequency (full time) and at a guaranteed non-variable amount? What if the job they're being hired to do does not have consistent demand? Or the service provided has competition, or varying costs, which requires price changes?
Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by ivanbakel on Friday April 05, 2019 @10:00AM (#19582542)
Yes. Workers should not be at the mercy of an unreliable paycheck.

> What if...

Can you give an example of what you're talking about?

Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by p_roz on Friday April 05, 2019 @10:12AM (#19582659)
Think about the demand for tax preparers each year. Higher demand Jan-Apr. Lower demand the rest of the year. Should companies be forced to hire tax preparers full time year round or should they be free to contract for only when they are needed?
Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by ivanbakel on Friday April 05, 2019 @10:56AM (#19583150)
That example isn't comparable to the kind of contracts that were originally being discussed. A contract with fixed hours on the scale of months doesn't have the same degree of stress as one with hours varying from day to day, week to week.

Fixed term contracts are allowable, because taking that thinking to the extreme would mean never being able to terminate a worker, even in cases where their employment becomes obsolete.

The issue revolves around "technically being employed" - having a contract which doesn't entail consistent or sufficient hours, and then not even having the choice to work enough to get by. This unfairly pumps employment figures for companies and the government, who can say that they have X workers, while denying an honest representation of how much people are actually able to work.

My original question was - is there an example of a job which could justify these kinds of fluctuations in working hours and subsequent income?

Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by howeyc on Friday April 05, 2019 @12:26PM (#19584119)
There are so many, as a simple example, think basically any contractor that does work on houses.

Painter, they can only work on days it's nice out. Kinda hard to paint when it's raining, and you can't get the day back.

Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by bryanlarsen on Friday April 05, 2019 @09:01AM (#19582061)
Without the gig economy jobs they could get welfare. But they don't qualify for welfare because gig economy jobs are available.
Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by barry-cotter on Friday April 05, 2019 @09:05AM (#19582094)
It’s like zoning. Some people honestly believe that no one is both willing, able and perfectly happy to live in a small, cramped apartment or without a kitchen, or in a group house. Other people understand perfectly well that making all those lifestyle choices illegal through zoning increases the value of their property by making it impossible to be poor and live in that area. If you make living in an area while poor impossible only the middle class and wealthy will live there and you’ll have lower crime and the schools will have good results because they’re full of the children of people who’ve made it.

By the same token many people of the “I’m middle class and I think this choice should be illegal.” persuasion genuinely think they’re making lower class people’s lives better by setting a minimum floor of some sort. They don’t think poor people can really make informed choices. It’s the same mindset as whorephobic feminists from Sweden or Iceland “protecting” women.

Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by neffy on Friday April 05, 2019 @08:23AM (#19581783)
Think of society as a very slow (this is key) networked system, subject to the same kind of feedback loops and manipulations we can perform in computer networks, just progressing in human time over years.

Now within this system there are two strategies to run a company, #1) employ people, make a product, sell it for a profit, rinse, recycle, keep going for decades if you´re good.

Or #2, for a short (but longish in human terms, several years at least, remember it´s a very, very slow system, and hey interest rates have been really low now for a decade), borrow money, employ people, make a product, and sell it for less than it cost to make.

Eventually with #2 the borrowed money runs out, but until it does you stand a more than decent chance of beating #1, and since you borrowed the money you can throw some great parties with it along the way.

For extra thrills and lolz, borrow the money from the banking system, so that when you can´t repay it, you crash the entire country with a credit crisis. Note there isn´t necessarily as clear a division between the two strategies as we might want, most companies need some kind of startup capital, and have to borrow that from somewhere.

Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by dredmorbius on Saturday April 06, 2019 @05:32AM (#19590012)
Though VC is technicaly equity rather than debt.

Rather than borrowing, it induces a follow-on investment, capital, revenue and market (in cases), recruiting strength and other mindshare effects.

The smart money knows the exit strategy (and more importantly: timing ), the dumb money thinks it does, the hopeless money has no idea what exit strategy is.

The effect is similar to the debt model you describe, though structured differently.

Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by gcb0 on Friday April 05, 2019 @08:36AM (#19581884)
it used to be called investor diligence. if a small startup was selling at a loss like Microsoft can, nobody would be crazy to have their money there.

now big finance saw they just need unicorns, not actual business models, so everything and anything is fair game and stocks are less sound than Vegas.

Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by dragonwriter on Friday April 05, 2019 @08:26AM (#19581804)
> I genuinely don't understand the argument that tech companies are hurting society by providing lower paying gig-economy jobs.

The whole point of “disruption” is that these businesses are squeezing out existing business which either provide more and/or higher-paying jobs.

Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by js2 on Friday April 05, 2019 @08:58AM (#19582036)
You will always find someone willing to work for less money or in worse conditions. It’s why we have minimum wage and workers’ rights regulations.

To the extent that existing minimum wage and workers’ rights regulations haven’t caught up with the gig economy, these jobs looks like capital exploiting labor by having found a loophole in the rules.

http://fortune.com/2015/07/30/freelance-vs-full-time-employe...

Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by golergka on Friday April 05, 2019 @08:12AM (#19581716)
Copenhagen principle of moral entanglement in action: regardless of cause and effect, the most powerful actor that is somehow entangled in a situation is called the one responsible by the media.
Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by sideshowb on Friday April 05, 2019 @08:54AM (#19582003)
It makes logical sense to direct efforts towards change at a body that is powerful enough to enact change.

There is usually a confusion of practical and moral responsibility, of course. Moral responsibility is a heuristic based on evolutionary incentives, that sometimes is and sometimes isn't useful for enacting change.

Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by will_brown on Friday April 05, 2019 @09:12AM (#19582153)
>genuinely don't understand the argument that tech companies are hurting society by providing lower paying gig-economy jobs.

For starters these multi billion dollar gig economy tech platforms aren’t providing jobs (at least to the gig workers). Gig workers are independent contractors and by their very nature independent contractors are self-employed.

It’s all a massive fraud that harms society. How many non tech companies go public with $1B/year losses? None. The very same company who on one hand doesn’t give 40+hour workers employee benefits and on the other claim they are job creators.

Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by bryanlarsen on Friday April 05, 2019 @09:06AM (#19582102)
Desperation and misunderstanding is forcing Uber drivers to drive passengers. The money they're getting has three components: the first part pays off their marginal costs (gas, insurance), the second pays off their fixed costs (increased depreciation on their car), and the third is their wage. How much is left after the first 2 components are taken off? It varies widely and is hard to calculate, but suffice it to say "not much".

Driving for Uber is like selling your stuff for cash. It's better than starving, but it's not a good choice.

Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by joosters on Friday April 05, 2019 @08:53AM (#19581998)
What about the people in the industries being 'disrupted' by the strategy of flooding the market with unsustainably-cheap products or services (e.g. taxi drivers being undercut by Uber) ?
Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by barry-cotter on Friday April 05, 2019 @09:24AM (#19582240)
Fuck taxi drivers and their entire industry. Fuck their lying about someone being there in 15 minutes for four hours. Fuck their “broken” credit card machine. Fuck hailing a taxi while black. Fuck a regulator that does their best to make filing a complaint impossible. Fuck trying to get s taxi to travel to an area that they are legally required to serve but they just refuse to go to.

It is an enormous pity that the taxi industry has not been disrupted more. If better service in every possible way is what disruption looks like count me in. Bring it on.

Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by danaris on Friday April 05, 2019 @11:51AM (#19583732)
But this is not a structural problem with the taxi industry: it is a problem with the current implementation in certain areas.

Other places have recognized the need to make taxi service more modern and less horrible and made changes—having their own ride-hailing apps for the local taxi service, for instance.

Not everywhere is New York City.

Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by barry-cotter on Friday April 05, 2019 @12:12PM (#19583952)
Indeed, not everywhere is New York City. Some places are worse, like San Francisco. Possibly there are places that are worse again. Certainly I would never get a taxi in Southeast Asia if I could possibly get an Uber.
Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by danaris on Friday April 05, 2019 @06:57PM (#19587820)
The point is that there's no specific reason that the taxi industry "deserves" to be terminated with extreme prejudice by disruptive startups.

Even given its current state in the places you name, I don't believe that justifies handing over billions of dollars to sleazes like the ones at Uber, especially given that the people who do the actual work to make them that money are often working at what works out to less than minimum wage.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by scarface74 on Friday April 05, 2019 @09:02AM (#19582073)
I honestly have no idea how much taxi fares are and have only used a Taxi when I was in New York in 2012. Before Uber, I would rent a car at the airport.

How many people use Uber for the convenience and are not price sensitive? How many people use Uber who have cars but use it so they won’t risk getting a DUI? Heck we use it just when we don’t feel like going through the hassle of parking and dealing with traffic when we go into the city center from the burbs sometimes.

Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by matt4077 on Friday April 05, 2019 @08:56AM (#19582016)
I genuinely don’t get people denying even the existence of opposing arguments. I am perfectly fine with arguing against them, even in such juvenile Ayn Rand terms. But to just pretend that there is no argument whatsoever seems disingenuous.

- Über replaces taxis. Taxi drivers are relatively well situated wrt to pay, insurance, etc. Uber drivers are working poor. Therefore, the middle class wins, the lower class suffers.

- In some cases, Uber replaces other modes of transportation, such as public transit. If you drive everywhere, you should hate Uber for clogging the streets. Also the environment, etc.

- Uber is a shitshow internally. Remember hw they bought nice jackets for everyone on the team, except the single woman because they wouldn’t get a mass discount on that jacket? Yeah...

Re:Who Pays the Price for Selling $10 Bills for $5? by sideshowb on Friday April 05, 2019 @08:55AM (#19582009)
Your argument hangs on the assumption of perfect competition and therefore a frictionless market.

Neither of these assumptions hold in practice.