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Re:You elected them to write new laws. They’re letting corpo... by mikeyouse on Thursday April 04, 2019 @05:56PM (#19577497)
I think that what you describe would be great if it was all done out in the open. What ALEC (and similar organizations on both sides of the aisle) have done is basically "White Label" legislation favorable to their backers and then distribute it across the country.

I suspect that the people of the dozens of states taking up these laws that are extremely favorable to some bad actors would like to know where the laws came from. States and Federal bodies are fighting FOIAs all over the country to hide the origins of some questionable laws which gives the premise a very unseemly feel.

Re:You elected them to write new laws. They’re letting corpo... by tptacek on Thursday April 04, 2019 @05:57PM (#19577510)
Yes, that is the idea. But you can "white label" legislation too. What's stopping "you" (in the broader sense) from simply competing with ALEC?

Politicians are good at getting elected, and OK at being, at least for some limited tenure, broadly receptive to some set of identifiable principles or goals that people vote for. But that doesn't mean they're good at drafting the actual laws, or, for that matter, recruiting and managing the people who are.

And as regards the malign influence of corrupt special interests --- at least model legislation is potentially traceable. How is it better for a chemical company and a legislative staff to strike a deal in a smoke-filled back room and then have the staff write a bill de novo?

Re:You elected them to write new laws. They’re letting corpo... by 9000 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @06:18PM (#19577663)
> Politicians are good at getting elected, and OK at being, at least for some limited tenure, broadly receptive to some set of identifiable principles or goals that people vote for. But that doesn't mean they're good at drafting the actual laws, or, for that matter, recruiting and managing the people who are.

I understand that legislators are voted in as a popularity contest, and that new legislators especially may not be good at the craft of writing laws. However, I feel like if we can't even trust these elected officials to be able to recruit and manage capable individuals who can write good laws, how can we expect our elected officials to recruit and manage capable individuals who can critically evaluate proposed model legislation?

If we can, I don't see how the skill set of the legislator is substantially different in these two cases. If we can't, then we are essentially admitting that interest groups should be able to convince legislators to pass laws on merits other than the bill's quality. In that case, I don't know what role the legislators are even performing in this system.

In my view, the point of democracy and its ideals of equality (e.g. one person, one vote) are to protect less powerful classes from more powerful ones. If our solution to the problem of model legislation is to throw our own money in the other direction, we will just end up with rich groups fighting battles with each other with little oversight from the rest of the population.

Re:You elected them to write new laws. They’re letting corpo... by tptacek on Thursday April 04, 2019 @06:20PM (#19577679)
I guess I'm just not seeing how it was ever realistic to think that legislators and their staffs were going to be the best authors of bills (rather than the best arbiters of what bills to pass, where I think there's a clearer case that they're the best option out of a whole untidy mess of worse options), or why competition from outside sources of drafting legislation would be a bad thing.
Re:You elected them to write new laws. They’re letting corpo... by 9000 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @06:40PM (#19577820)
I don't think there is any reason to believe that legislators are the individuals with the most talent at drafting law. It's probably some academic or lawyer somewhere. But, I do believe that the process that gets legislators into that position is designed to provide oversight over them, and allow for a metric that can prevent the worst people being chosen. Just because someone better at writing laws exists, does not mean that we have a better metric of choosing them than the democratic vote. And for them to then shirk not just their duty to write the laws, but also their duty to provide meaningful oversight over the bills that do get proposed and passed, implies to me that there are real problems.

I have no problem with interested organizations writing draft bills and publicizing those. What I do have a problem with is politicians taking those whole-cloth and implementing them in law without consulting other stakeholders, especially when money or influence changes hands.

Re:You elected them to write new laws. They’re letting corpo... by magpi3 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @06:16PM (#19577650)
> Yes, that is the idea. But you can "white label" legislation too. What's stopping "you" (in the broader sense) from simply competing with ALEC?

I lack the resources to compete with large corporations.

Are you arguing that we must all join large well funded organizations in order to have a voice in our laws?

Re:You elected them to write new laws. They’re letting corpo... by tptacek on Thursday April 04, 2019 @06:18PM (#19577665)
Lobbying in general is problematic (though I think it's less clear-cut than I think people assume it is). But I'm clearly meant to be especially aghast at model legislation, which, to my eyes, seems strictly superior to the mode of lobbying where the lobbyists pay to have legislators write their bills for them.
Re:You elected them to write new laws. They’re letting corpo... by 9000 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @06:32PM (#19577754)
To me, it feels like the complete lack of a deliberative process implies that the legislators are not actually providing meaningful oversight in the slightest.

Sure, oftentimes special interest groups will understand an issue in much more detail than a legislator (who almost by definition must be a jack-of-all-trades). But, it should also be clear that lobbying groups will very often use this knowledge for their personal gain, at the expense of other stakeholders. In my opinion, a good legislator would critically evaluate legislation, make changes, consult with other stakeholders, etc. Changes to the legislation imply an interest in the effects of the legislation (good or bad). But to instead allow legislation to be signed with your name with no, or few, changes to the text, shows that the legislator is willing to give the lobbyist everything they want, with no deliberation or push back.

That feels particularly suspect to me.

Re:You elected them to write new laws. They’re letting corpo... by kasey_junk on Thursday April 04, 2019 @06:40PM (#19577811)
Wait. That’s an argument not in evidence either. Why is lobbying bad? The same arguments apply for model legislation. Legislators can’t be experts in everything they legislate so it behooves the people with vested interests & expertise to lobby their positions.
Re:You elected them to write new laws. They’re letting corpo... by tptacek on Thursday April 04, 2019 @06:46PM (#19577856)
Yeah, like I said, I think the lobbying debate is more complicated than it seems at first blush, but I'll stipulate here that there are patterns of toxic lobbying that are worth worrying about. I just don't think model legislation is an indicator of those patterns.
Re:You elected them to write new laws. They’re letting corpo... by mikeyouse on Thursday April 04, 2019 @06:33PM (#19577762)
> And as regards the malign influence of corrupt special interests --- at least model legislation is potentially traceable. How is it better for a chemical company and a legislative staff to strike a deal in a smoke-filled back room and then have the staff write a bill de novo?

If Chevron + Exxon + BP pool their resources to write model legislation, they can very likely create 'bulletproof' protections for themselves that can be pushed to all 50 states simultaneously (or as many as have receptive legislatures). If they're on a state-by-state negotiation, it adds friction that I personally feel is very healthy.

This is a similar argument about Citizen's United -- everyone has a right to speak but Goldman Sachs can afford much more speech than the average person...

Re:You elected them to write new laws. They’re letting corpo... by tptacek on Thursday April 04, 2019 @06:54PM (#19577917)
Yes, that is a reason to be skeptical of ALEC bills. My point isn't that you should be happy with ALEC. My point is that model legislation is not in and of itself a bad thing; model bills are good or bad on their own merits.
Re:You elected them to write new laws. They’re letting corpo... by Latteland on Friday April 05, 2019 @01:08AM (#19579877)
Rich people shouldn't just push legislation that benefits them. It's clearly a negative to our country. ALEC has already shown they are not helping things. One prominent example is their legislation that makes it illegal for communities to build their own internet access, regardless of how undeserved they are. This does no one any good, except for the comcasts of the world.

ALEC is evil, like the Koch brother's legislative activities, evil in that they only serve the interests of wealthy monied groups, perpetuating their power.