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Re:The Army thought a veteran faked his health issues while ... by village-idiot on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:41AM (#19571499)
I believe the US army has created an EPA superfund site out of one of its rifle ranges due to the sheer volume of lead that built up into the earthen berms where privates learned how to shoot. Just because the kinetic energy has been taken out of the bullet doesn’t mean you can just ignore them. A similar effect has happened in former battle grounds, leaving the locals exposed to all of the known consequences of early life lead exposure including (ironically) an increased propensity for violence.

For these reasons the Army has expressed an interest in developing a non-toxic rifle bullet that’s cheap enough for their usages. Swaged copper bullets exist, but at ~$1 a pop they’re appropriate for hunters and not for an army that goes through billions of bullets.

Unfortunately many people on the webs are upset about this, perhaps out of the misguided opinion that we’re not being cruel enough in our foreign wars. In reality it’s well within US interests to reduce lead exposure to soldiers and combat zone civilians, especially to ensure that those zones transition better to peace once the fighting is over.

Re:The Army thought a veteran faked his health issues while ... by desdiv on Thursday April 04, 2019 @10:03AM (#19572389)
>For these reasons the Army has expressed an interest in developing a non-toxic rifle bullet that’s cheap enough for their usages. Swaged copper bullets exist, but at ~$1 a pop they’re appropriate for hunters and not for an army that goes through billions of bullets.

US Army switched over to the lead-free M855A1 cartridge back in 2010. The new round has better performance overall and costs only 5 cents more per round than the old leaded M855.

Disappointingly enough, the Marines only just adopted the M855A1 in 2018, and the USAF has no intention to do so.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56%C3%9745mm_NATO#M855A1

Re:The Army thought a veteran faked his health issues while ... by magduf on Thursday April 04, 2019 @10:50AM (#19572962)
>Disappointingly enough, the Marines only just adopted the M855A1 in 2018, and the USAF has no intention to do so.

To be fair, the USAF doesn't do any ground combat with small arms that I'm aware of. Most likely, the only thing they do with that cartridge in deployment is to give it to their security forces, who are basically just guards and almost never use their weapons in combat these days. I'd be a lot more worried about what the USAF uses in much larger rounds, which they fire from aircraft.

Re:The Army thought a veteran faked his health issues while ... by stirfrykitty on Thursday April 04, 2019 @11:37AM (#19573564)
USAF Combat Controllers, Pararescue (PJs), and others are elite troops. In fact, the requirements for Combat Controller are extremely mentally and physically demanding. They are not only Air traffic Controllers, which is tough enough, but they are also effectively equivalent to Army Rangers.
Re:The Army thought a veteran faked his health issues while ... by LgWoodenBadger on Thursday April 04, 2019 @11:39AM (#19573592)
USAF has a "Special Tactics" force, similar to the USN's SEALs.
Re:The Army thought a veteran faked his health issues while ... by village-idiot on Thursday April 04, 2019 @10:26AM (#19572651)
It seems I’m only half behind on my knowledge then.
Re:The Army thought a veteran faked his health issues while ... by stirfrykitty on Thursday April 04, 2019 @12:10PM (#19573979)
I agree with the lead being removed. More lethal is actually better for small arms, though lead doesn't play a real point in this area. The 5.56 is very frustrating for combat troops, though. In many thousands of demonstrable instances, it takes more than one round to bring an enemy combatant down. This was not the case when the US still issued .30 caliber individual weapon systems. Massive difference in power between the two. The 5.56 is OK out to about 100M if the operator puts the projectile in a CNS region.

The .30 will reliably put opponents down very well, even with the required FMJ rounds. The .30 stuff is far better at hard barrier penetration than the 5.56. The .30 turns cars and walls into concealment rather than actual cover. The 5.56 suffers here unless it's a crew served weapon that can chew through barriers.

I understand the reasons for going to the 5.56. I lived through the transition from the .45 to the 9MM, which was and is lamented by the USMC. The 9MM is analogous to the 5.56/.30 issue. NATO compatibility is the sole reason, but the troops suffer from the lack of power these rounds offer. In the gas-operated weapons used, recoil difference is negligible, since the system soaks up the recoil pretty well, and when the adrenaline runs, recoil and noise are not really noticed anyway.

Re:The Army thought a veteran faked his health issues while ... by village-idiot on Friday April 05, 2019 @12:14AM (#19579642)
I was under the impression that weight and the ability to carry more rounds into combat was a bigger driver of the original 5.56mm development, not recoil.

Given the rapid growth in hard armor that can take a few 5.56mm rounds before failing, I wouldn’t be surprised to see militaries shift more towards a 6.5 or 7mm cartridge with a hardened steel penetrator.

Re:The Army thought a veteran faked his health issues while ... by stirfrykitty on Wednesday April 10, 2019 @08:49AM (#19624067)
The reason is NATO compatibility. No more, no less. That was the answer when I asked when serving. Now, having said this, there are .30 caliber individual weapons aplenty in troop hands and those that use them prefer them. They do perform far and away better.

What most people don't understand is the troop loadout for combat ops. Men are not dripping with weapons and rounds per Hollywood. The standard loadout is an M4 rifle with 6 30-round magazines (180 rounds). If you are issued a handgun, that is 3 15-round magazines for an additional 45 rounds of ammunition, albeit in the "weak" 9mm, which is a get-off-me gun meant for house-to-house, close quarters fighting where a long gun would be unwieldy.

As you suggest, there is a large push to go to the 6mm/243/6.5, which offers SUBSTANTIAL performance benefits over the 5.56. A .243 (6mm) is pushing more ballistic energy at 500M than a 5.56 does at 100M. That's a lot more. And the rounds don't weigh that much more or take up that much more space. Recoil, likewise, is negligible at best due to the gas-operated platform. But, NATO... NATO is sold on the idea of 5.56 and 9mm. I think that DMs should be issued the better long guns to deal with issues the 5.56 cannot handle.

Re:The Army thought a veteran faked his health issues while ... by village-idiot on Wednesday April 24, 2019 @08:10AM (#19737561)
> The reason is NATO compatibility. No more, no less. That was the answer when I asked when serving.

That might be the reason for continuing to use 5.56mm, but it looks like America actually adopted the cartridge first.

Re:The Army thought a veteran faked his health issues while ... by moccachino on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:47AM (#19571569)
It seems to me that on a budget of 600-700 billion, it would not be too difficult to spend a few billion on bullets. Also not every bullet has to be the same (ignoring logistics and interoperability for the moment), but if there are already different sizes of bullets then they could be made out of different materials.

At least that should slightly decrease the concentration of any single material when large quantities of bullets pile up.

Re:The Army thought a veteran faked his health issues while ... by _jal on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:53AM (#19571641)
> slightly decrease the concentration of any single material when large quantities of bullets pile up.

Don't worry, then. They've been using depleted uranium rounds, too.

Re:The Army thought a veteran faked his health issues while ... by village-idiot on Thursday April 04, 2019 @10:22AM (#19572609)
Oh, it’s worse than that.

Depleted Uranium tank shells don’t produce too much dust, because of Uranium’s habit of braking into large pointed shards. This “self sharpening” aspect is why the material is used. But when it’s used in thermobaric arms, watch out.

Re:The Army thought a veteran faked his health issues while ... by moccachino on Thursday April 04, 2019 @09:05AM (#19571765)
... Great.

Well, I guess consideration for anything except mission results is too much to ask of an organization like a military...

Re:The Army thought a veteran faked his health issues while ... by xkcd-sucks on Thursday April 04, 2019 @03:23PM (#19576138)
>Swaged copper bullets exist, but at ~$1 a pop they’re appropriate for hunters and not for an army that goes through billions of bullets.

Most bullets are fired in training, an copper is recyclable, so cleaning up bullets is feasible. It might even be an opportunity for boots to relieve their boredom and learn about weapon systems

Re:The Army thought a veteran faked his health issues while ... by winter_blue on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:47AM (#19571570)
> A similar effect has happened in former battle grounds, leaving the locals exposed to all of the known consequences of early life lead exposure including (ironically) an increased propensity for violence.

Has there been a study showing this correlation? As far as I know, countries that were shattered in World War 2, like Japan and Germany, are less violent on average, than the US. And note: the mainland continental US has been relatively at peace, and has not had any major domestic hostilities since 1865.

Also, have bullets always (historically) had lead? Or is this something that only newer ammo (since WWII) have?

Re:The Army thought a veteran faked his health issues while ... by fhars on Thursday April 04, 2019 @09:18AM (#19571910)
The major source for environmental lead during the second half of the 20th century has been gasoline, not ammunition, and the correlation is quite well established: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead%E2%80%93crime_hypothesis
Re:The Army thought a veteran faked his health issues while ... by Mediterraneo10 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @09:34AM (#19572067)
> As far as I know, countries that were shattered in World War 2, like Japan and Germany, are less violent on average

Mainland Japan did not see any ground fighting, only firebombing and the two atomic bombs. Therefore, one would not expect the locals to have been exposed to the results of infantry firing thousands and thousands of bullets.

Re:The Army thought a veteran faked his health issues while ... by vkou on Thursday April 04, 2019 @03:29PM (#19576202)
And most of the fighting in WW2 took place way outside German soil.

By the time the frontline reached Germany, the war was almost over.

Re:The Army thought a veteran faked his health issues while ... by pjc50 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:50AM (#19571595)
Re:The Army thought a veteran faked his health issues while ... by baud147258 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @09:47AM (#19572211)
> Also, have bullets always (historically) had lead?

Yes, but the volume has been way smaller before, until the advent of automated weapon in the 20 th century.

Re:The Army thought a veteran faked his health issues while ... by Nasrudith on Thursday April 04, 2019 @10:17AM (#19572558)
Depends on how you define bullet - sling ones had lead as a better but more expensive option.

Some really early ones used stones or wooden bolts but firearms hadn't really taken off then and they fell into obscurity for a reason.

Before they also had more common /even worse/ practices like casting bullets by campfire for better fit and logistics than early manufacturing.

Re:The Army thought a veteran faked his health issues while ... by potta_coffee on Thursday April 04, 2019 @11:10AM (#19573210)
Parts of France are still uninhabitable due to pollution from munitions in WWI.
Re:The Army thought a veteran faked his health issues while ... by village-idiot on Thursday April 04, 2019 @01:16PM (#19574743)
The use of poison gas probably has more to do with that.

Even in inhabited parts of France they have an “iron harvest” as plows continue to turn up unexploded ordinance.