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Re:Why Don't Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are? by TuringNYC on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:32AM (#19571387)
A lot depends on your particulars. I'm a minority and the US is great because I can earn opportunities my relatives in some other countries would not be allowed. In some other countries, your ethnicity/background/religion would get in the way far more than in the US.

This is not to say we don't have room for improvement, we do. Just that we're more meritocratic than certain other first world countries. I know this just comparing experiences, stories, outcomes from many friends, cousins, co-workers in other countries. (Also, I've lived overseas for work many years and got to see things firsthand.)

Is it a grind? Yes. Stressful? Yes. But meritocracies [wherever you are on the spectrum] are stressful because you are competing for outcomes rather than being born into them.

...And then there is US healthcare. I don't know what to say about that...

Re:Why Don't Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are? by sweeeety on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:42AM (#19571511)
Came here to say this. I am a minority but never found myself misplaced in the USA. The country I came without much to offer but honest work and positive/open mind.

Whereas in Europe I've been victim of physical abuse just because I am not white and the immigration path is also completely broken.

There is suffering everywhere I lived Canada, USA, France, Denmark, Japan, Brazil. Some places take care better of the unprivileged indeed.

...yeah the health care has become a big problem but it is for the Americans to solve it their own way.

Re:Why Don't Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are? by close04 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @09:31AM (#19572038)
> I am a minority but never found myself misplaced in the USA

> in Europe I've been victim of physical abuse just because I am not white and the immigration path is also completely broken

I'm not contesting you actually had these experiences but yours must be an exceptional story. It contradicts the reality of a lot of people.

But you make one big confusion that makes me question your experience with the systems. The US is a country with relatively uniform legislation. Europe is a continent where not only are the cultures vastly different between countries, the laws (like immigration) can be very different, a lot more so than between US states. And not all European countries are in the European Union. So the blanket statement "the immigration path is also completely broken", especially when comparing to the US, gives away some (uninformed) bias.

A person coming from Syria can get permanent resident status and/or citizenship after just a few years under perfectly acceptable conditions (like learning the language and having a job). So I don't really see a broken or particularly difficult path especially compared to the US.

Re:Why Don't Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are? by sweeeety on Thursday April 04, 2019 @10:09AM (#19572465)
Definitely, it is my subjective experience but what I can say is that lot of high skilled immigrants here in Denmark don't feel welcome [0]. Whereas, in the USA, we were really proud to be there and contribute to the society and eventually become permanent resident / citizen.

Legislation in the USA varies a lot, unless we talk about immigration. Which in my case here in EU, as spouse of EU citizen, is also being scrutinized by politicians here in Denmark [0].

[0]: https://www.thelocal.dk/20190327/opinion-stop-being-so-hosti...

edit: forgot to mention. My worst employer in the USA was ironically a Danish company (MeyersUSA hospitality group). They blatantly violated labor laws and sanitation requirements (sadly they managed to erase some of the negative reviews from Glassdoor).

Re:Why Don't Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are? by amf12 on Friday April 05, 2019 @09:53AM (#19582468)
> what I can say is that lot of high skilled immigrants here in Denmark don't feel welcome [0]. Whereas, in the USA

Unfortunately, immigration in the US is not a meritocracy. It chooses for diversity rather than skill. Having been through the immigration system (as an Indian citizen), I will say it is broken. I have seen Uber drivers from Africa getting a green card easier than I can even though I spent 5-6 years there, studied at a local university, had a good job.

Re:Why Don't Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are? by close04 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @11:05AM (#19573157)
Then I would rather say the issue is with Denmark (laws, politicians, people, whoever you see as the main culprit) rather than a European issue. Denmark is one of the smaller countries (size and population) in the EU so generalizing based on that example seems like an overreaction.

Also I can't find any reference anywhere supporting the idea that physical abuse from the locals is a common practice in Denmark. There's no pattern to police shootings and incarcerations based on color either.

For example Vienna, Prague or Madrid are generally considered as some of the most expat friendly cities in the world. Germany, Spain, Sweden are also generally considered as some of the best expat countries in the world.

Imagine saying the US is not an innovative country because Mississippi is not innovative. :)

Re:Why Don't Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are? by sweeeety on Thursday April 04, 2019 @12:20PM (#19574092)
You are right that it might be a particular problem from Denmark but I also see it is common to share the positiveness of EU across all States (like saying assuming quality health care is universal across EU) but single out negativities when convenient.

The use case pointed with Mississippi is one of those absurd edge cases. It would be more suitable to say you don't generalize the USA as a country full of pick trucks or people carrying concealed guns, even if that might be more common in some states and illegal/uncommon in others.

Re:Why Don't Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are? by close04 on Friday April 05, 2019 @03:57AM (#19580617)
I just picked one of the members of a union, chose a weak point, and generalized it to the whole union. Is it not similar to the Europe/Denmark situation?
Re:Why Don't Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are? by Improvotter on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:50AM (#19571597)
> In some other countries, your ethnicity/background/religion would get in the way far more than in the US.

I completely disagree. I'm from Europe and applied to a few American-based companies and they all had these ridiculous forms related to anti-discrimination and the like. Is it that big of a problem in the US? That's whay I'm asking myself when I have to fill in those forms. Why do you have to know my ethnicity? Why do people in the US _constantly_, and I mean CONSTANTLY, talk about their origins? Literally no one cares in Europe, but it's always said in the US. "Native-american btw", "african-american btw", etc. I personally think this is an issue in the US, but it isn't that big of an issue in Europe.

> This is not to say we don't have room for improvement, we do. Just that we're more meritocratic than certain other first world countries.

I personally think that this is an illusion. Europe is in my opinion a lot more meritocratic than the US from my visits. I think the US is very hypocritical when it talks about immigrants as the whole of the US is made of immigrants, just all from different generations. Europe doesn't currently have a problem with building a wall to keep the Mexicans out or anything.

Re:Why Don't Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are? by freshm087 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @09:05AM (#19571766)
Europe doesn't currently have a problem with building a wall to keep the Mexicans out or anything.

This is plainly not true. EU has a lot of its own walls. It's just the fact that it lacks long land border with countries from which major migration flows originate is what makes it a lesser topic for debates.

Why do you think migrants coming from the Middle East prefer to cross Aegean sea, instead of going by land? Because land border is all fences, barbed wire, and even landmines with not a single gap.

And limiting migration is very hot political issue in many EU countries currently.

Re:Why Don't Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are? by close04 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @10:09AM (#19572464)
> and even landmines with not a single gap

Really? Are you talking about the landmines in Croatia that weren't fully cleared after the 1990s Balkan war? People were actually providing maps with the approximate locations of the fields so they can be safely bypassed.

You make it sound like Europe is planting mines to keep migrants out. If the reaction of a small minority of European countries (2-3) seems exaggerated when faced with over 1 million (!) immigrants, then the fact that over 7000 people [0] were killed at the US-Mexico border just over the past 20 years should really shock you to the core.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migrant_deaths_along_the_Mexic...

Re:Why Don't Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are? by freshm087 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @11:21AM (#19573347)
I'm not claiming that EU is planting landmines against migrants. I'm telling that EU's border with migrant-providing regions is short, and already fortified - and that's why there's no discussion about border walls. And it's not a reaction of minority of countries: with all its postures, EU is not afraid to fund expansion and renovation of border fences not only on its own borders, but in other countries which are on typical migrant paths. If you want a projection on US: it's like there's a sea between US, and Mexico, except for a few strips, already fenced for decades, and US administration pays to build walls between Mexico, and Guatemala, Guatemala, and Honduras, and so on.

Btw, I'm quite certain number of migrants drowned in Meditteranean over past 20 years is much more then 7000.

Re:Why Don't Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are? by infinite_luck on Thursday April 04, 2019 @11:11AM (#19573217)
On that wikipedia page you linked, the 7000 (or 10000 since 1994) deaths are from all combined sources. The vast majority of those seem to be from exposure to the elements (for instance hypothermia is one of the most common causes of death) or accidents. If you read the part of that page that talks about Border Agents' use of force, around 17 deaths are listed, with an additional 10 left disabled. Your use of that source is a misunderstanding at best or dishonest at worst.
Re:Why Don't Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are? by close04 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @12:35PM (#19574267)
Which is no different from the landmines that "Europeans" (one country) "use" (still have them after an atrocious war) to keep migrants out. This was my point.

It felt like a "whatabout" reaction and no effort was made to remove the impression that mines are actually employed with the purpose of keeping migrants out.

Re:Why Don't Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are? by infinite_luck on Thursday April 04, 2019 @01:16PM (#19574742)
I understand. I wasn't supporting the person you were arguing against, just pointing out that the US Border Patrol hasn't killed thousands of migrants.
Re:Why Don't Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are? by smnrchrds on Thursday April 04, 2019 @10:04AM (#19572393)
Landmines? Aren't EU countries signatories to the Ottawa Treaty?
Re:Why Don't Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are? by freshm087 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @10:56AM (#19573055)
TB of my knowledge the border between Turkey, and Greece still has uncleared landmine fields, and Serbian-Croatian border has uncleared spots too, in spite of the treaty. For clarification, I'm not telling they appeared there because of migrants. No, but my point is one can't pretend EU don't want to build border walls because EU is all migrant-loving place. EU's land border with unstable regions is very short (a patch in Bulgaria, a patch in Greece, Spanish Ceuta & Melilla), and already well-fortified. That's why there's no duscussion.
Re:Why Don't Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are? by ozzyman700 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @09:12AM (#19571842)
Those forms are so companies can prove they do not have systemic racism in their hiring practices. afaik for some government contracts a higher % of minorities is a positive factor (as would lower bid price).
Re:Why Don't Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are? by deanCommie on Saturday April 06, 2019 @12:03PM (#19591393)
> Why do you have to know my ethnicity? Why do people in the US _constantly_, and I mean CONSTANTLY, talk about their origins? Literally no one cares in Europe, but it's always said in the US. "Native-american btw", "african-american btw", etc

As a Canadian who's lived in Europe for the last 4 years, this is farcically false.

When my family emigrated to Canada, we were Canadian from day 1. And as you also noted in your dashed qualifiers, all those people are still considered AMERICAN. That is the North American way.

On the other hand, in Europe, i meet people who have been in their current country for 3 generations but still consider themselves as from the country of their ancestors.

Re:Why Don't Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are? by sidesentists on Thursday April 04, 2019 @09:07AM (#19571798)
I think it depends on your frame of reference.

Sure, for certain individuals the US, or Europe, or much of Asia would provide a better life.

But compared to how things were in the past, the US has changed for the worse.

I'm a white male, so I can't really complain about being mistreated in the sense you're mentioning. But in talking to many people, and in my own experiences, there's a sense that the "meritocracy" is increasingly a falsehood based on survivorship bias.

My own sense is that this is largely driven by increasing income inequality, coupled with or driven itself by monopolies and rent-seeking behavior across many many domains. So a smaller and smaller pool of money is going around to those who are able and willing, and a disproportionate amount of it is going to a smaller few who either game the system, or who are willing to tolerate abuse.

Part of what the article is referencing, I think, is a shame among Americans to say this, because it's labeled as sour grapes or something. I also think part of it is a sense that admitting the system might be broken is actually less optimistic because it amounts to some admission that you don't have agency. But these seem increasingly untenable as positions to have.

Re:Why Don't Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are? by dudul on Thursday April 04, 2019 @08:36AM (#19571437)
> In some other countries, your ethnicity/background/religion would get in the way far more than in the US.

Some may say that in the US, what gets in the way is which social class you belong to. Several studies highlight that social mobility is very low in the US.