Lack of redundancies on Boeing 737 MAX baffles some involved in developing it

Re:Lack of redundancies on Boeing 737 MAX baffles some invol... by netsharc on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @03:51AM (#19561594)

> the next gen aircrafts would only require a single person in the cockpit, and everything will be handled through automations.

Hasn't that myth been around for years, along with "Planes can take off and land by themselves?"

https://www.askthepilot.com/questionanswers/automation-myths...

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Re:Lack of redundancies on Boeing 737 MAX baffles some invol... by cm2187 on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @04:09AM (#19561673)

He may be right for the state of what has actually been wired up in today’s cockpits, but conceptually I don’t see why you couldn’t fully automate a plane. Even in emergency situations, pilots are required to follow established procedures and check lists, not become creative. The pilot mentions the example of an aborted take off, I can’t think of any reason an auto pilot wouldn’t be able to perform one. And of course you will need even more redundancy than there is today as you won’t have pilots who can look out at the window and come up with their own opinion of what is going on, and challenge improbable readings. Plus you can always have the option to have remote manual control if you really need to.

Of course there are parts of today’s aviation that are incompatible with automation. ATC over radio is one of them. Visual landing only at many airports is another one. There would be large costs to upgrading the infrastructures to be computer friendly, so I am not saying the switch is trivial, but it is bound to happen nevertheless.

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Re:Lack of redundancies on Boeing 737 MAX baffles some invol... by netsharc on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @04:46AM (#19561813)

IMO pilots are there in case shit really hits the fan, or birds hit the turbofans: I doubt computers would be creative enough like Sullenberger and decide to land on a river.

And 2 pilots means 2 brains that can divide the workload...

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Re:Lack of redundancies on Boeing 737 MAX baffles some invol... by cm2187 on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @04:48AM (#19561820)

Fair point, but even then you could have a remote pilot telling the plane what to do with the automation executing the strategy (given the latency).

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Re:Lack of redundancies on Boeing 737 MAX baffles some invol... by jamesharding on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @05:42AM (#19562030)

If the remote ground-based pilot has the capability to take total control authority of the aircraft (which, after the GermanWings incident would seem to be a necessity), then the security implications are massive. Imagine a remote-control attack on an aircraft carrying 800+ passengers...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93U.S._RQ-170_incid...

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Re:Lack of redundancies on Boeing 737 MAX baffles some invol... by LoSboccacc on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @07:33AM (#19562498)

> I don’t see why you couldn’t fully automate a plane.

every nut and bolt can and will break. every component load increase battery size and generator load, carrying a greater risk for fires.

if you go down the path "automate with manual backup" then you introduce even more fault-prone systems: the circuitry that disable automation might be faulty and can be another fire risk all of itself and the conflict between faulty automation and manual overrides could be itself an aggravating issue in an emergency.

and even if your plane is perfect, you have to live in an imperfect environment (same argument as car autopilots really): other plane around you might have an emergency, forcing your to delay landing. the airport might have an emergency, forcing a detour, the ils could break down, even on final.

it's exceedingly hard to write software that handles the common cases well enough, imagine having to write software to handle also the unforeseeable faults.

> remote control

and this introduces a whole new topic: systems rarely used are the ones with the more reliability issues. both manual and remote override, on top of being more stuff with their own failure modes, would be rarely tested in practice until the moment they'd be needed the most.

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Re:Lack of redundancies on Boeing 737 MAX baffles some invol... by ams6110 on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @11:38AM (#19564231)

Combinatorial complextity. It's impossible to foresee every possible combination of failures. There are checklists for the ones that can be foreseen (and these have often been written in the blood of those who discovered them) and maybe in theory most of those could be automated. But they cannot be exhaustive. So when all else fails, you rely on human intelligence guided by experience and training as the last line of defense. It doesn't always work, but until we have an AI that performs better, it's the best option we have.

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Re:Lack of redundancies on Boeing 737 MAX baffles some invol... by CaptainZapp on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @04:16AM (#19561689)

He may be right for the state of what has actually been wired up in today’s cockpits, but conceptually I don’t see why you couldn’t fully automate a plane.

Good luck finding paying customers to board such a plane.

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Re:Lack of redundancies on Boeing 737 MAX baffles some invol... by cm2187 on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @04:41AM (#19561800)

They will probably have lower operating costs. That will be a reason. And when they demonstrated their reliability over time people will stop thinking about it. Pilot error is still the number 1 cause of plane crashes.

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Re:Lack of redundancies on Boeing 737 MAX baffles some invol... by ddalex on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @04:42AM (#19561803)

I dunno, I'd trust automation from Airbus more than a low-payed over-worked low trained pilot from a low cost no-non European carrier.

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Re:Lack of redundancies on Boeing 737 MAX baffles some invol... by CaptainZapp on Friday April 05, 2019 @06:38AM (#19581263)

After Boing's major fuck up I'm not sure that this comment will age well.

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